All
About 16" Wheels and Tires And The CV-900
By
Derek Drew
derekdrew AT derekmail.com
202-966-7907
This
article contains information of interest to any wheel buyer for Vanagon / T3 or VW Syncro with an
engine in the back, whether that wheel is 15" or 16" and also
information on selecting tires for these wheels. In addition, it also contains
information on the only perfect 16" and how to get one, and lots of great
links.
Since
this document is longer than I had originally intended, be advised that it
covers:
1. Important technical discussions that
have nothing to do with these wheels but on wheels and tires generally for Vanagon and Vanagon Syncro.
2. Important technical discussions about
choosing tires for Vanagon and Vanagon
Syncro
3. Load bearing rating discussion in wheel
and tire choices
4. Optimal ET discussion for Vanagon and Vanagon Syncro
5. How to order and take deliver of the
CV-900
6. New pictures of the CV-900
7. Discussion of suitable tire sizes for
various types of owners
WHAT
THE CV-900s LOOK
LIKE
Me dressed like a --slobby -- typical Vanagon owner at Mid-Atlantic fest next to the wheel below
The
blue van in the background is Tom Forhan's.
INTRO
SUMMARY:"WORLDWIDE SOLUTION IN PROGRESS FOR VANAGON / T3 16" WHEEL"
Be
advised that I have made progress with manufacturers on obtaining a batch of
"perfect" Vanagon wheels in 16" size.
The manufacturer introduced these wheels early this year, but listed them as
not fitting Vanagon / T3 and so nobody realized the
breakthrough. I have corrected their understanding.
Because
the ET is 30, longer studs would not be needed. No spacers or adapters of any
kind would be needed. The center caps / hubcaps are included as well, and for
most users who need them, I have lugnuts and/or studs
at no extra charge. These facts lower the all-in costs of this wheel
significantly.
Also,
the wheel is a light alloy wheel specifically manufactured for the purpose of
off-road driving and being installed on heavy van conversions so it is stronger
than other wheels we have discussed except possibly the T4 ET48 wheel (900kg
rating), which, of course, has entirely the wrong offset and requires a
somewhat massive spacer.
The
manufacturer, which focuses among other things in making wheels for vehicles of
Styer Daimler Puch that are
used off the road, initially turned me away, but after some spirited and
persuasive and lengthy emails, they are turning to our cause, and I would say,
actually becoming excited.
This
is a WORLDWIDE solution, and the only solution of its kind for 16" wheels
that I have seen in any country, on any web site, or in any email.
As
for 15" wheels, I regard that as largely solved by the South African
15" wheels, which I view as satisfying all the requirements we need in a
15" size so 15" was not the problem. (The best source of South
African 15" wheels before
Specs for the new 16" wheel are:
66 center bore
5 x 112
14mm stud holes
ET30
16" x 6.5" width
900KG rating (Incredibly strong)
21 lbs (light weight attractive alloy)
Price $230 per wheel
WHAT
ABOUT THE FACTORY 16" WHEEL?
-- at just 5.5 inches wide it is too narrow for many tires (if you have
one, consider having Stockton Wheel make it wider for you).
-- it has been discontinued
-- it is expensive
-- it is heavy
-- it is an ordinary steel wheel (although very
strong)
WIDTH
PERFECTION
The
width advantage of these 16" CV-900 wheels is that:
--
the 6.5" width is better than wider widths such as 7" or 7.5" or
8" that may cause the rubber of the tire to rub against the sliding door,
suspension components, or wheelwells. 7" appears
to be OK, 7.5" is troublesome, but 6.5" seems best. For more reading
on this, see Wolfgang's incredibly informative wheel article at http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/fitbigtiresonvanagon.htm
--
the 6.5" width is better suited than narrower widths such 6" or the
horrendous 5.5" factory width since some tires such as 245/75/16 require
6.5" or larger, and most of the other tires which are rated to go on
6" rims will be sit better on a 6.5" rim due to that being more to
the center of their seat range.
--
the 6.5" width better matches the available sizes of beadlocks
availalbe from tireloc so
from that perspective it is superior to 7" width if thinking of adding
this type of beadlockers later.
ET
PERFECTION
-- the ET of 30 is pretty much a perfect balance of fit
concerns for large size tires (reference the work of Wolfgang at http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/fitbigtiresonvanagon.htm and also jens
16syncro regarding 245/70/16) and also from a theoretical perspective in
minimizing bearing wear. You can go with smaller ETs
such as ET25, but then you will
1) experience increased dirt thrown up on the side of the
vehicle (vehicle dirty after going through one puddle)
2) be
moving away from the factory's choice of ET30 for its alloy wheels in both
14" and 15" sizes with consequent unknown issues in regards to
increased bearing wear, and
3)
are more likely to hit your wheelwells with large
size tires and/or wheelwell flares. You can also
safely go up to higher ETs such as ET35 or even
higher, but this will move the wheel close to the body of the vehicle,
introducing increased chance of the wheel hitting the body or rear trailing
arms or being unable to mount snow chains.
The
range of wheels from the factory had ET30 and up, so the possible effect of
using ET23 upon premature bearing wear is unknown
WHEEL
COATING
This
wheel's coating, which is a kind of hard slippery plasticy
paint material, will resist the accumulation of brake dust, and so preserve a
better appearance, according to manufacturer statements.
WEIGHT
DISCUSSION
Collecting wheel weight data in one place. I found
-- 18lbs regular factory alloy rim
-- 21lbs the CV-900
-- 23lbs
-- 23lbs
-- 28lbs Factory 16" Steel Wheel (according to Eric Abercrombie)
-- 35lbs for a
Lightness
helps preserve lower unsprung weights when loading on
extra lbs with upgraded brakes and tire sizes, and so is a significant benefit.
Select a wheel/tire combination too heavy, and you may
have to also change your shocks to a heavier duty type.
The
CV-900 is is lighter than either of the 15" 23lb
South African wheels by two pounds, and seven pounds lighter than the too
narrow 5.5" factory Volkswagen 16" steel wheel manufactured for Vanagon Syncro 16" version.
CUSTOM
MANUFACTURING
The
wheels were custom manufactured to our needs. Among other elements, the depth
of the cone seats were increased for us to a custom depth so that most Vanagon studs would be able to be used without modification
or replacement, the bore was custom manufactured, the holes were drilled to
14mm, and the ET was set at 30.
WHO
ACTUALLY MAKES THESE WHEELS?
The
wheels are manufactured by the company Wolfgang mentions in his article at
http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/fitbigtiresonvanagon.htm as making wheels which
are then modified by Off Road Center Meisen or Sport
und GelE4ndewagentecnik in
ABOUT
LOAD BEARING CAPACITIES
The
CV-900's 900kg rating is higher than any other wheel for which we have load
bearing ratings discussed in Vanagon circles except
for the new T4 wheel, which also carries a 900kg rating, but which as I have
previously discussed, has the wrong offset, is heavy, and requires fairly
massive spacers. I judge the offset of ET48 or ET53 as so far off I am a little
surprised to see it being used for Vanagon / T3 at
all. Such is the desperation to find a suitable 16" wheel that we have so
far faced that people are pressing into service such huge spacers along with
heavy wheels.
Audi
wheels are reported on European Vanagon-equivalent listserves to have kg ratings of 590kg (1290lbs x 4 …
5160lbs total), and so, depending on the wheel, can be dubious choices when
their total load bearing capacity is several hundred lbs less than our vehicles
are rated to run, at, in the case of the syncro,
5,500lbs. Some listmembers have had good results with
Audi wheels, and surely not all have such a low rating, but this information
does give one pause about selecting an Audi rim without knowing its actual load
rating. At this time, pending further information, it may be advisable to think
twice about Audi rims for that reason.
While 900kg is spectacular, numbers above about 750kgs are probably
acceptable but the stronger the better. The CV-900 is TUV approved for such
heavy vehicles as the M-Class Mercedes, Toyota Landcruisers,
British Landrovers, and even the giant Mercedes
Freightliner / Sprinter vans that Fedex now uses http://www.sprinter.com/passenger/index.html
.
Q. Derek,
How do you determine the load rating of a wheel?
A. It is hard to get because, while these ratings exist, most people you
can find to ask won't know or they will make up a number to try to make you go
away.
The number is supposed to be registered with TUV in Europe, I think, but
I had very spotty results in trying to get the numbers, more often getting the
response, "It should be strong enough" which I interpreted as
"Please go away; we have no idea."
My
Web site www.consumersearch.com refers $300,000 annually of wheel and tire
purchases to Tire Rack, for example, so I had some pull there to get the real
answers. But I was dismayed to find that the big North American web sites where
you can go and buy wheels admitted to me that they had no idea the KG rating
that applied to the wheels they sell, and list wheels mostly based on bolt
pattern and ET or because the manufacturer says the wheel fits that particular
car.
Sometimes
even the manufacturers seem to be just eyeballing their wheels before making
application recommendations. I found one manufacturer who told me his wheels
were suitable for Vanagon Syncro
but when I went back to Tire Rack they said "no way" on that
particular wheel -- not strong enough, but could offer no supporting detail.
So some of this devolves to voo-doo
and misinformation.
A tip
off that a wheel is suitable for heavy vehicles is if
the manufacturer promotes the wheel as being suitable for off-road use and/or
heavy van conversions. That's how I found the CV-900 -- that the wheel was
being promoted for *both* of those purposes.
When
I finally drilled down to somebody at the manufacturer who had the number it
turned out to be 900kg and I knew we finally had something significant there.
KG ratings for VW wheels are apparently obtainable, as we know the T4
wheel we have spoken of in the past has a 900kg rating (though an undesirable
offset).
We have not obtained the KG rating for the 15" South African
wheels. But because VW offers these specifically for the South African Vanagon (Kombi or whatever you want to call it) I believe
it is probably safe to assume the wheel has an adequate KG rating without
knowing the exact number.
Some
of the Mercedes cars were heavier than Audi cars, so it is more likely to find
a used Mercedes rim with sufficient KG rating. This information would be
helpful if you are going to buy based on guessing... to veer toward Mercedes
wheels as opposed to Audi but the extent to which this is true or not is
unknown.
Mercedes M-Class rims also seem like they would be strong and would fit,
but in interviews with Tirerack.com and discounttiredirect.com, executives
admitted to me that the tires there for M-Class were NOT selected after
checking their kilogram ratings, ratings these sellers do not know, but rather
because the bolt pattern and offset were correct for that vehicle or because the
manufacturer said to use them. In other words, just because a wheel is listed
as fitting the M-Class, don't expect it to have been checked to see if it
actually has a load bearing rating for either an M-Class or a loaded Vanagon. I encountered this information with the utmost
dismay during my researches as in my view it cast question mark upon that
entire class of rims. In any case, the M-class rims are typically wider than
optimal at 7 inches and usually more, and have an undesirably high ET, although
not as far off as the T4 rim.
So it
would seem that we have something of a breakthrough in having 900kg rating,
21lbs weight, 5 x 112 bolt pattern, and ET30 with the CV-900. No other wheel
has this combination of strength and light weight and correct fit. The strength
may have benefited from its having been introduced only the last year or so, by
which it has benefited from recent manufacturing design.
WHICH
SIZE SHOULD YOU GET, 15" OR 16"?
There
is a current trend in the automotive industry to move to every larger and
larger wheels. This is moving beyond the fad stage
into a rage stage, and we are seeing SUVs coming out
with 17" and even 20" wheels. The new wheels on the new VW microbus
are extremely large, for instance. So partly the choice is a matter of personal
taste, and how you like the look of either wheel.
Most
importantly, the upgrade to EITHER size is advisable because either size
enables upgrading to 15" brakes from
Note
that 15" tires tend to be cheaper than 16" tires as a general rule,
particularly in
In
any case, here is the guidance in the event that you have not already made up
your mind: The 16" wheels will enable tires to be mounted with a shorter
sidewall, and so will provide a benefit in sway resistance and on-road handling
over the same 15" wheel. So if you have a two wheel drive vehicle, and /
or rarely drive off the road, the 16" wheel is an advantage from the point
of view of handling. The 16" wheel also better fits the very largest
diameter tires than can go on syncro, so in the event
that you contemplate upgrading to very large size tires, including upgrading
your gearing to accommodate an off-road optimized vehicle, then the 16"
wheel is a superior choice.
Some
off-road oriented Vanagon owners may wish to stay
with a 15" wheel, provided they are not switching to very large diameter
tires, on the theory that a 15" wheel provides more sidewall to flex down
in low air pressure situations for the purpose off road floation
driving across swamps and other muddy areas. So there is a possibility,
although it is speculation, that the 15" wheel is a better choice if you
plan on off-road driving and plan on only a modest increase in tire size. This
advantage may be slightly negated by the benefit of the increased strength of
the 16" wheel vs. 15" but that advantage cannot be objectified
because, although we know that the 16" wheel is rated at 900kg, we do not
have the KG ratings of the South African competing 15" wheels.
In
short, the 16" wheel is the performance choice for highway driving and for
some users with off-road optimized vehicles, but the 15" wheels may be a
better choice, at least in theory, for some users who want the most rubber to
flatten out in an aired down situation (e.g., 18psi) on a muddy course, and who
don't want to preserve a migration path to very large tires.
16"
WHEEL PRICING
The
pricing for the 16" Wheel is $230 per wheel plus local delivery in the
HOW
TO ORDER
If
you would like to order this wheel, email me at derekdrew AT derekmail.com.
NUTS
AND STUDS
When
sending your payment, I will need to know if you will need strait cone style
nuts and/or studs or whether you already have these. Mounting nuts and mounting
studs, in addition to the hubcaps, are included in the price of the wheel, but
only if you need these. Basically, you will need me to send you nuts and/or
studs if you have the old style nuts and studs for metal wheels that don't have
a strait cone pattern. Note that the SEAT of the wheel for the studs or nuts is
the same strait cone pattern that we have on our factory 14" Alloy wheels.
So if you have bought wheel locks for your 14" alloy wheel, you can most
likely reuse those same wheel locks with the 16" wheel. Also, you can
reuse your 14" alloy wheel nuts. Nuts and studs, for those who need them,
are provided at no additional charge.
WHAT ABOUT INTERNATIONAL SHIPPING?
The CV-900s can be shipped to any country, including
WHAT ABOUT EBAY WHEELS?
Ebay is an excellent source of wheels. However, be sure
to check all the specs discussed in this email before buying such a set of
wheels. There is an extremely high chance that a given wheel will initially
look promising, but that the wheel will fail to have optimal offsets, KG
ratings, bolt patterns, width, or some other parameter like ongoing
availability. I looked for wheels on ebay for several
months and eventually gave up.
WHAT
ABOUT RONAL WHEELS?
Ronal
wheels may work but for various reasons I decided to avoid them. You can see
these at http://www.ronalusa.com/cars/cars_html/vw_vanagon.html .
The two wheels are the R-28 or R36. But the R-28 is 7.5" wide …. a little too wide, in my view -- and there is a question
about whether Gary Allison would be willing to supply them in ET30. In the past
he has refused on the phone with me to consider any ET other than 20, for
reasons that he won't discuss with me except to say with annoyance that any
other offset won't fit and to add that he has no time to discuss it. (He is
obviously wrong.)
The
R-36 appears from an initial view to be apparently available only in ET0, which
is absurdly low and Ronal should know better than to be offering these tires in
this ET. Also, the KG ratings of these wheels are unknown. Ronal promotes their
wheels on their website as having been shown to be stronger by TUV than some
other wheels Ronal competes against, but when pressed, Ronal cannot supply any
information to back up these claims and Gary Allison becomes annoyed again. On
a surface impression, the CV-900 looks beefier than the R-28 or R-34 due to the
CV-900's wide spokes. Until Ronal can cough up the test data it touts on its
web site, it is not clear whether these claims have a solid basis or not.
Pursuing these matters with Ronal is kind of fun because of the unique
character of Gary Allison, who responds to serious technical inquiries about as
welcomely as one would respond to a root canal.
Additional of my comments about Ronal wheels appears in the archives here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/5508
WHAT
ABOUT GOWESTY WHEELS?
You
can see GoWesty wheels at http://www.gowesty.com/MM101.ASP?pageno=130
All
of those wheels are either 7" or 8" in width, wider that optimal in
my view. The 7" width is probably OK, however. Unfortunately, only the
15" alloy wheel comes in 7" width and the 16" wheel comes in
8" width AD undesirably wide. Beyond width issues, the ET is not stated,
and the KG rating is not stated and the prices are higher than for the CV-900
so I kept looking. GoWesty's alloy wheels appear to
be cosmetically to be identical to some Mercedes wheels but I don't know where
their wheels actually come from. Go Westy's judgement does not inspire confidence, however, since they
promote use of a Michelin X-One tire with an entirely inadequate load bearing
rating for Vanagon (see below for more on that
issue).
WHAT
ABOUT REDRILLED WHEELS?
You
can buy a wheel with the correct specs but the wrong bolt pattern and then have
new holes drilled in them 5x112 in certain circumstances. You can also buy
wheels with 12mm stud holes and have then drilled out to 14mm in certain
circumstances. For more information on this topic and some innovative
approaches to buying wheels that don't fit and then making them fit, search the
archives on Ben T's name: Ben T's name or email address BenTbtstr8@AOL.COM or
see his website: http://hometown.aol.com/bentbtstr8/myhomepage/index.html
There are many strange and
interesting approaches to wheels on that site. For a variety of reasons,
however, I did not find that these approaches enabled me to achieve the
specifications I wanted as discussed in this document, and so eventually I
turned away from these solutions.
WHAT
ABOUT VANAGAIN.COM WHEELS?
Ken Wify is a member of our group and a great
service to the Vanagon community. If you go to
www.vanagain.com and click on http://www.vanagain.com/newwheel1.htm he
lists some Borbet wheels that looked interesting, but
the specs on those wheels were either not quite ideal or information about them
incomplete or their prices were higher than the CV-900, or actually all three
of the above. For example, Key says all these wheels are so large they require
a $199 sliding door extension.
ABOUT TIRELOC BEADLOCKERS
I originally felt that I wanted a classical American beadlocker
where a metal or special ring squeezes the tire and holds it tight against your
rim.
I wanted this because in aired down situations I kept losing my tires
off the van. From long use, I discovered that you need to keep your psi up around 18 in order to have a hope of keeping the
tires on and even then sometimes the tire would come off in slushy muddy snow
covered nasty bolder fields. Off-roaders sometimes
speak of driving around at 8psi but I can assure you you
cannot do this with your Vanagon under normal
circumstances, at least not without beadlockers.
Possibly they do this in snow or sand and I am driving through muddy boulder
fields and that's why there is a difference in psi
limits.
In any case, previously it seemed to me that metal style or ring style beadlockers would be a superior solution than what I
derisively called the "plastic bag" solution of the tireloc, which sounded experimental in nature.
Since then I have had a complete change of heart. In particular, after
about 10 hours or reading and research I was astounded to learn that
traditional beadlockers are unsafe, illegal, leak,
require constant maintenance, and will get you a ticket from the police in many
states. Moreover, the beadlocker screws unscrew
themselves over time and your wheel eventually can fly off on the highway and
that they are constantly in need of retightening and you still often cannot be
sure of eliminating all the leaks. You can see my short report on this finding
here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/8492
For more information about the tireloc, see:
www.tireloc.com
http://www.4wdonline.com/Wheels/Tireloc.html
http://www.jdsoffroad.com/install/TireLoc-Install.htm
Basically, the tireloc has none of the
disadvantages of a traditional beeadlocker, and has
the advantages that it is a smaller inner inflated tire, essentially, so it
offers double protection against smashing impacts to your wheel that might bend
a rim of a vehicle not having a tireloc. I have bent
several rims, so this is a particular concern of mine.
After thinking this over, I have come to the view that the quality the tireloc offers of protecting your rim may be as important or more important than its role as a beadlocker. The tireloc is so
tough, that for a short distance, you can actually drive on the tireloc alone as your only source of inflation, although,
of course, your VC won't like it.
In any case, I got 40 of the beadlockers from the manufacturer and can send these out with the wheels. The beadlockers are $150 per wheel. They are expected to be in stock and ready for shipping in Spring of 2008.
WHAT
TIRES TO GO WITH THE 16" WHEEL?
The best general purpose tire to get for the CV-900 for North American vehicles with stock factory gearing is the Nokian Hakkapeliitta CS tire in size 205/65/16. The 205/65/16 tire is rated for mounting on a 6.5 inch rim, has an incredible load index of 105/107, and, although it is classified as a winter tire, it uses a year-round rubber compound so it is well suited to year-round use. It has 790 revolutions per mile and looks like this: HOW TO PICK VANAGON TIRES AND OTHER CHOICES Another possibility is to
use the Nokian all season tire in size 225/60/16 (I think it is the WR model and/or NRW).
These are 26.6" in diameter, have a tread width of 9", an excellent load bearing of 98,
can be pumped up to 44 psi, and have 782 revolutions per mile--the same as the BF Goodrich
All Terrain Radial that many Vanagon owners run with stock gearing. Another short answer tire is the Dunlup SP Sport 9000 size 225
/ 60WR/16 which has a 98 load bearing rating 51psi inflation pressure, mounts on 6.5" rims and has 783 revolutions per mile. Dennis Haynes mounted a Wrangler HP in size 215/65R16 on the CV-900 and he says the result is good. Dennis has a syncro with stock North American 4.86 gearing and a stock 2.1L motor. The tire Dennis chose has a revolutions per mile of 770, which is a mite low for a stock geared vehicle, so on the surface, the Nokian with 790 revolutions per mile indicated above would be a better choice unless you are after more ground clearance.
For
normal Vanagon owners who do not plan to change their
factory final drive gears and who do not drive off the road or desire
additional 4th gear ultimate top speed or additional ground clearance, I
recommend using a tire size that will run about the same number of revolutions
per mile as the factory original tires. This will preserve stock gearing
characteristics. The traditional factory original tires were the Michelin MXLs with 819 revolutions per mile in size 205/70/14. The
equivalent 16" tire would also have about 819 revolutions per mile. Ronal
Go Westy sells a Michelin X-ONE tire in size 215/60-16
(providing an ideal 805 revs per mile) and Michelin also lists a 215/65/16
X-ONE that provides a little more ground clearance and worse acceleration at
782 revolutions per mile so look into tires of those two sizes as well. The
only trouble is that the Michelin X-ONE that Go Westy
promotes has a load bearing rating of only 1477 according to a chart I saw at
Michelin's web site. If I did not miss something, that tire is therefore mostly
unacceptable for Vanagon. The tire with 782
revolutions per mile has slightly better load bearing rating of 1565 so I might
go for that one notwithstanding the hit in the acceleration dept over the one
that Go Westy recommends. See additional comments
below about load bearing ratings for tires. You can see the two Michelin tires
just discussed at http://tires.michelin-us.com/assets/pdfs/doc_xone.pdf and other Michelins at their web site. Note that there were reportedly some Dunlop tires in size 225/55-16
which carried adequate load bearing rating for Vanagon
but I am not sure whether their revolutions per mile were in the desirable
range. There is a Dunlop tire in size P225/60R16 which runs 839 revolutions per
mile and is load index 97 rated – sufficient for Vanagon
or Vanagon Syncro – called
the D65 which you can see at http://www.dunloptire.com/products/tire.html?tire=d65_t_touring.
In addition, there is apparently a Dunlop tire in that same size which is
reinforced and is used with the VW Eurovan. I am not
sure what tire that is, or whether it is the D65 or not. Dunlop also makes the
SP 40 A/S which runs 786 revolutions per mile and can be seen at the end of
this page http://www.dunloptire.com/products/tire.html?tire=sp_40as . That tire has a load index of 97, which is
sufficient for Vanagon. Yokahama makes a spectacular tire in size P245/50R16 Ben T
runs 205/75/16 on his vehicle, and seems pleased with this size. Factory
stock 16" sizes are 205R16 95R or 6.50R16PR10XCL or 195R16, according to
Rainer. David
Marshall says running 225/60 16 size tires did not rob his van of too much
power and he was happy with them. In
any case, when shopping for a tire for 16" rim and stock geared van, I
would recommend almost *any* size that is between a width of 195 and 235 which
results in revolutions per mile between about 782 and 830. You can go outside
these revs per mile ranges by another 10 to 20 revs per mile without ill
effects that are too pronounced, but there *will* be ill effects either in an
acceleration hit or a top speed hit. Before closing, it is important when
picking your tire to select one that has adequate load bearing rating for the Vanagon. Such tires typically, but not always, are called
Light Truck tires, have extra plys in the sidewalls,
and usually inflate to 50psi instead of 35psi. Try to make sure your wheel is
rated at 1600lbs and over if it is a regular tire and 1500 lbs and over if it
is a BF Goodrich All Terrain Radial. There is more to this subject in the
archives and further below. Sidewall stiffness in a 16" wheel is probably
vastly less important than sidewall stiffness in a 14" wheel, so possibly
the 16" area is less sensitive territory. So in
short, for vehicles that don't intend to change their gears from stock, you
should survey tires in sizes between 205 and 235 or 245 with aspect ratios of
approximately 50 through 65, as in: 205/50/16 205/55/16 205/60/16 215/50/16 215/55/16 215/60/16 225/60/16 225/50/16 etc. ...while
checking the revolutions per mile information discussed above and shooting for
about 800 (782 through 830) and checking the load bearing rating. If preserving
stock acceleration ability and hill climbing ability is important to you, then
narrow the advice above toward a slightly narrower range of, say, 795
revolutions per mile through about 830. In a
very large size, such as 235, you may even want to check a 45 series tire or 40
series (very squat), but I did not do that research so I don't know the
resultant revolutions per mile nor whether such tires exist..
One final check will have to be undertaken to finalize your choice of tire,
which is to make sure it is rated for a rim of 6.5 inches in with, but most
tires meeting these specs will meet this rating. Here
is a tire with great specs: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: I located a tire by michelin
MXV4 Plus 235 60R 16 26.9 "
diameter load rating of 1764 @44, 778 RPMile @ 45MPH,
the tire has a 100H service description
and costs about 605.00 mounted and balanced throught
4 day tire in Redondo Beach, CA. What do you think? 778 is pretty good revs per
mile and if you mean that the load bearing rating is 100 then this seems like a
great tire choice. I think if you look again
http://tires.michelin-us.com/assets/pdfs/doc_energymxv4plus.pdf you may find
that the tire has 772 revs per mile instead of 778, but that difference is not
significant. I approve. Will add your find to the article. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If
were *me* picking a tire for my own use with a 16" wheel, but without
gearing changes, I might break the above rules and pick a tire in size
215/70/16 that would run 747 revolutions per mile (Bridgestone AT) or 743
revolutions per mile (BF Goodrich All Terrain Radial -- my favorite tire and
popular with other Syncroists for both on and off
road use). Such tires would come with a significant performance hit vs. 819
revolutions per mile, but have the advantage of higher top speed capability and
increased ground clearance for better off-roading
ability. Your wife, when driving such a tire up hills in the
mountains with stock gears, will drum her fingers on the dashboard, and think
that the motor is *really* underpowered. You'd then be thinking about
motor upgrades. The size recommendation contained in this paragraph will be
preferred mostly only by those who use their syncro
as an adventure vehicle off road and wish extra ground clearance. If that does
not apply to you, a more normal tire size as described above is probably a
better bet. Note that this size, 742 revolutions per mile, is basically the
same revolutions per mile as 215/75r15. This is the largest size of 15"
tires that owners without gearing changes should normally run so. The size
215/70/16 is the same size as that so it too is probably the biggest you can
get away with without changing your gears. There seem to be many Nokian tires that fit the Vanagon
with 16" wheels quite well and that have various heavy duty load ratings.
You can see these at http://www.nokiantires.com/indexen.html.
Possible Best Nokian
For Stock Geared Car Nokian has a very good looking year-round
tire that has good specs for size for stock geared vans and also great load
bearing rating called the Hakkapeletta CQ which will
be out in July 2002 with huge load rating of 104-107 in these two excellent
sizes: Size Ply
Rating/ Load Index 205/65R16 C 106/104Q Available
07/2002 215/65R16 C 107/105Q Available
07/2002 Moderately High Load Rating Regular
Tire -- Looks Good, Available Now Among the tires there that fit are
the Nokian WR All Weather SUV tire in size 215/65/16
which has more than adequate load index at load index 98. Winter Tire Another good winter tire choice
would be the Hakkapeliitta 10 C in size 195/75R16 with an 8 ply rating and 27.6" tall but you
are obviously not trying to get a winter tire right now. 104 to 116. Studdable Tire There is also the Hakkapeletta C2 with truly extraordinary load
index ratings of 104 to 116 depending on how you read the chart. The C2 is a studdable tire for all weather use. Size Load
Index Overall Diameter 205/65R16 * C 107/105T Available
07/2002 215/65R16* C 106/104T Available
07/2002 The CS model has two interesting
tires in sizes 205R16 and 215/75R16 but neither of these are probably going to
provide optimal gearing results with a stock-geared van. For your purposes to retain stock gearing, sticking with a tire that is 26" tall is
probably the best but you could go up to another half inch from that without
noticing it too much. So I would find out the height of the above tires and see
which are closer to 26" than 27". Better yet, get the revolutions per
mile data. Note From
Curt --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Derek, I saw the conversations below. I might clarify something about the Nokians. The C2, CQ
and CS tires are all "Commercial" tires. They are a new line to Nokian. The CQ is a true "studdless"
snow tire with a special soft ice compound rubber with an aggressive tread and siping pattern. I am
running and testing a new set of 14" CQ's
now. So far, they have been handling
everything I can throw at them... I go
out of my way to brake and accelerate on ice as a test, and so far, I have to
use extreme braking to get the tires to slip.
I'm very pleased!! The Q model is the passenger version
of the CQ and from what I have heard, the Q Nokian is now tested as the best ice / snow tire on the
market, even beating out the Michelin Artic Alpin on
ice. The Q series is better in deep snow
with it's more agressive
tread and pattern. The CQ has the same
tread and rubber in a Commercial weight tire. The C2 has a similar tread pattern in a
tougher rubber designed to accept studs.
With studs, it should probably outperform the CQ in certain situations
and without studs, it can be used as an all-season
tire. The CS is listed as an all-season
tire with a tread pattern closer to the CQ but with a different rubber designed
to last longer and for all year use. I would choose the CS for Summer use and if you are not a skier or don't like to push
the limits in snow and ice. However, I
just noticed that the size I was considering (195/75R16C 107/105Q NOKIAN
HAKKAPELIITTA CS) at 27.5" diameter was meant to go on a 5" to
6" rim http://www.etires.com/tireSpec.jsp?specID=3422 It seems that the next sizes up will
go on a 6.5" rim, but they are both larger in diameter than the BFG you
like. I am assuming that you should not
use a tire rated for 5.5" to 6" rims on a 6.5" rim. Do you know any different? Feel free to forward any of this to
anyone you like. Curt
From: "Curt Long" ===============================
Hi Derek,
I was reading your CV900 information on the Syncro / Yahoo site and saw the old quote from me about the Nokian tires.....
"The CS is listed as an all-season tire with a tread pattern closer to the CQ but with a different rubber designed to last longer and for all year use.
I would choose the CS for Summer use and if you are not a skier or don't like to push the limits in snow and ice. However, I just noticed that the size I was considering (195/75R16C 107/105Q NOKIAN HAKKAPELIITTA CS) at 27.5" diameter was meant to go on a 5" to 6" rim
http://www.etires.com/tireSpec.jsp?specID=3422"
Well, I went ahead and bought the 195/75R16C CS models mentioned above. Turns out they fit the 6.5" wheels just fine with no ill effects. I discussed the width specs with the guys at eTires.com before I ordered them and they indicated that 0.5" difference would be ok especially since the wheel was larger and not smaller. I have been driving on them for the last 9 months and can say that they are a superior choice for all-season use if you don't mind the 27.5" diameter. They are probably the best choice so far for one tire all year for my Syncro. I take a hit on climbing hills in 4th, but of course, shifting down to 3rd I get a higher speed before red line in 3rd that just about makes up the difference.
With this load rating and the narrower profile of these tires, I have noticed superb stability in cross-winds... almost no effect. I just finished a trip through some heavy cross-wind that was gusty too from different directions. It was satisfying to see other VW and American Vans dancing around while I was rock-steady! Also, the snow traction is just as good as the CQ model Nokian. The Ice performance is almost as good. I am able to slip the tires a little more on wet ice than I was able to do with the CQ ice compound tires. However, in really cold conditions (below 25 degrees F), there is less difference on ice.
For some reason, Nokian didn't release the CS model in a 65 series size. They did in the CQ and C2 models, but the CQ is too soft for good wear all year and the C2 uses a tread pattern that has less siping and tougher rubber to hold studs. If they ever release the CS model in a series 65 16" tire, I think I could finally say I found the Perfect Syncro tire for stock gearing.
Oh yes, for some strange reason, my rear hub caps have started to settle into the wheel on their own... Maybe some Hub Cap ferries are taking care of me..??? ;-)
Later,
Curt Long
End Note From
Kurt--------------------------------------------------- -- If it were *me* buying a tire I would probably buy
the BF Goodrich 215/70/16
All Terrain Radial which I am SURE is a very adequate tire for this purpose
from the point of view of strength. However, I might go with the Nokians in order to get the load rating up and the gear
ratio down. Not sure what I would do. The Nokians
look better the more I look at them. If you already have or are planning alternate final drive gears, such as
5.43, 5.86, or 6.17, then tire size recommendations will be different. The
sweet setup in those cases are for 6.17 final drive
gears plus tires in one of the following sizes. Revs/Mile Size
Tire Height 680 245/75R16 30.6 682 215/85R16 30.5 707 225/75r16 29.4 715 235/70R16 29.1 730 225/70r16 28.5 Due to strengthened ties to When planning to use one of the above very large tires, you will need to
research gears to match, and are advised to check: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/7207
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/7221
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/11535
Doing so will get your mind going on the
subject. If you feel a bit overwhelmed by the data there, email me with
questions and I should be able to run numbers on your particular case to see
what makes sense and what does not. When looking to source parts or service for
any of the above gear change operations, email me at derekdrew AT derekmail.com and I can
get you most of the parts at less cost than other vendors and also steer you to
transmission rebuilders specializing in this area. WHAT ABOUT LOAD INDEX RATINGS ON TIRES (FROM VANAGON.COM) BEGIN VANAGON.COM QUOTE The Syncro Westy of
1987 called for minimum load index (L.I.) of 97. Later models
have been reported to call for 99 minimum on 14x5.5" rims and 107 for
14x6" rims. Here is a chart of load index (L.I.) ratings: 97 730kg 1609-1652 pounds 99 775kg 1709-1763 pounds 107 975kg 2149-2200 pounds Reinforced sidewalls are extremely important for Vanagons
because their high center of gravity and narrow track puts excessive forces on
the sidewalls! (Stand up and lean to one side and then imagine what would
happen if your bones/ligaments etc were "mushy"!) Some list members reported 'cracks in the sidewalls' -- that is why it
happens. The folks at Michelin have had more than a few of the wrong tires on Vanagons returned to them with cracked sidewalls, which can
(and I don't want to be alarmist here, but just inform) lead to what they call
something like 'bead failure' (the inability of the bead to keep the tire on
the rim I think) and resulting 'catastrophic blowout.' Not a pretty picture,
not likely to happen, but a possibility in cases of extreme wear and something
the list needs to be more aware of in my opinion. This is why Michelin corporate was so adamant about the Agilis on the phone with me. One tech guy was not quite,
but nearly, hysterical. I hope this helps, and please, let's be more conscientious about
informing people - especially new list members/owners -- about the sidewall
considerations in tire shopping/purchasing -- irrespective of what brand they
chose. END VANAGON.COM QUOTE Derek's comment: Many of us are running around on BF Goodrich All Terrain
Radials in size 27 x 8.50 / 14 and have had almost no trouble. Now this is a
tough little tire, so it has an edge up, but it actually does not meet any of
the specs above being rated to handle only 1515lbs and I have absolute
confidence in the tire. In any case, I would advise not tempting the gods, and
try to make sure your wheel is rated at 1600lbs and over if it is a regular
tire and 1500 lbs and over if it is an BF Goodrich All Terrain Radial. The
stock MXL was rated to load index 99, or 1709lbs. VW technical support way back
when reported to list members that 1600lbs or more rating is sufficient.
Accordingly, while more is better, in my view the reports that VW later
increased the load index rating to 99 or 107 probably do not have to be
followed. According to one report these higher load index ratings were only for
their special 16" models with reinforced body. Another lister
form I think For the record, the BF Goodrich tire I would choose for a stock-geared
car, the BF Goodrich All Terrain Radial in size 215/70/16, has a load bearing
rating of 1765lbs, more than adequate and likely a much tougher tire than even
that number indicates. FINAL CHECKLIST FOR 16" WHEEL HUNTING 1. If sticking with stock gearing and not looking to optimize for off
road purposes, does the tire have a revolutions per mile of 782 to 830, or 742
to 830 if looking to optimize for off-road use? Or even try to make it 795 to
830 for better acceleration? 2. Does the tire rate at least 1609lbs per tire (otherwise expressed as
load index 97) 3. Does the tire inflate to at least 50psi? 4. Does the manufacturer rate the tire to mount on 6.5" wide rims? AN ASIDE ON 245/75/16 More pictures of the test fit with 245/75/16 tires are available from me
(they are on my hard drive). I would describe my attitude toward this
combination as 100% approval, and my initial impression was that the
combination was BIG. Though not overly so, I would say, BIG IN THE EXTREME. Do
not, however, go with 245/75/16 tires without changing your rear trailing arms
to 16" type, however, and also changing your gears. For a test fit with
245/75/16 in front see:
http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/images/16wheelclearsbreaksbymile.jpg and
you can also see the amusing photo of this sized wheel/tire compared with the
stock wheel on a two wheel drive Vanagon we tested at
Tom Forhan's house:
http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/images/245on2wdvsstock.jpg This tire is rated to handle 3042lbs, basically, overkill. It is
possible that this huge 3042 rating would actually make the tire unsuitable for
Vanagon Syncro but I have
not finished research into that question. Note that Jaeger uses 235/85/16 tire,
which is more massive still (and basically does not fit!)
so at least there is one respected lunatic out there using an even more extreme
solution than mine. Lastly, for tire research, here is my favorite chart:
http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/2001_PDF_files/All-Terrain_KO.pdf =============================================================== Date: To: Syncro@onelist.com, VANAGON@GERRY.VANAGON.COM From: Derek Drew <derekdrew> Subject: Worldwide Solution For 16" Wheel
(Advances Made) MANUFACTUER EMAIL EXCHANGE MANUFACTURER LAST WEEK: Dear Mr. Drew, we would like to thank you very much for your inquiry reg. light alloy wheels for the a.m. vehicle. The CV-900 wheel 6,5x16", ET 30, 5/112 does not fit to the VW T3 Syncro. For a.m. vehicle we can offer our CV wheel in size 8x16 ET 20 5/112 Centre hole 66,5. Upon receiving the above email I sent them a lengthy email with numerous
links to indicate that my spec does indeed fit and that in fact theirs is too
wide and doesn't! Then.... MANUFACTURER TODAY: Dear Mr. Drew, we have checked the brake of the German T3 Syncro - the CV wheel 6,5x16", ET 30,
5/112 wheel is suitable. To be absolutely sure that the wheel is suitable to the sample wheel by air freight tomorrow. Please be so kind and arrange mounting tests on front axle and rear axle and confirm us that the wheel is suitable. ===============
.
There are many other possible tires however, and the somewhat laborious information below goes into all the details. Before buying one of these other tires, you will want to make sure that those other tires compare favorably to the Hakka CS mentioned above.
You may also benefit from looking at a personal tire selection worksheet I had on my hard drive which I put here for your convenience:
http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/tire_choices_for_16_CV900s.doc 
called the Avid H4V4 that has just enough
load bearing rating to be considered (1576lbs) and inflates to just enough psi to be considered (44psi.). Part of the reason I call it
spectacular because it is relatively wide, a good choice if you plan a 200hp
motor and plan to race your Vanagon on a Indianapolis
style paved track—a size one would expect more likely to see on a Corvette/Vanagon hybrid but it just might work great. Not sure about
that. Information about that tire is here: http://www.yokohamatire.com/04b1a.html
The revolutions per mile is 811 basically
exactly stock. There is an Avid T4 tire in that same size with similar
characteristics at Yokahama.