Lunch with Herm and Eutychus
“How
Silent is Silent”
Herm had already finished eating. His plate was pushed a little closer to the table where Gracie could fetch it easily, with the fork and knife neatly placed to show he was done. Herm had settled into the corner of the book as Eutychus finished his salad. Herm had been quiet and Eutychus knew what this meant: all he had to do was ask the right question and the floodgate of Herms thinking would inundate him like the houses below the dam that broke last week somewhere out west. “So you were saying?”
Herm looked up and smiled. “I was thinking about this whole women’s issue again and I’ve had a few thoughts that I’m not sure I’ve heard anyone else express.”
“What else is new?” Eutychus said with a smile. He speared another slice of cucumber and swept it around the plate, mopping up the flavor of the balsamic vinaigrette.
“No,” said Herm, his eyes sparkling with that Holmes-ish intensity that Eutychus loved, “this is really quite different and may be a breakthrough for us.”
“You guys done?” Gracie had seen Herm’s retired plate and had approached the table.
“Not quite,” Eutychus said, but it won’t take long. “You in a hurry?”
“Nah, just checking.” She sailed away from the table.
Euthychus looked up expectantly. Herm was playing with his water glass in the puddle of water that had condensed and run down the sides onto the Formica table.
Herm sensed that he had Eut’s attention and looked up. “There are a lot of passages in the New Testament that relate to this issue and some of them seem to contradict one another. Somehow, I think that there has to be a way of thinking about it that would bring harmony to all of them.”
“Okay?”
“Well, there are lots of arguments in the text that can be confusing and lots of considerations beyond the text that make it even more confusing.”
“Like what.”
Herm let the glass down gently into the puddle and raised his index finger. “There’s the whole question of whether the arguments Paul made are bound by his culture, which of course, was much different, or whether they are independent to the culture, or the specific situation and therefore still apply to us.”
His middle finger shot up. “There is the question about that passage in First Corinthians about all things being permissible, but not necessarily beneficial.”
“Wasn’t he talking about drinking wine in that verse?”
“That’s the context, but the concept seems to be stated more universally. Third,” Herm’s ring finger flashed, “There is the issue of what is the ‘church’ that Paul was talking about: does it include the small group discussions? Does it mean the assembly of the whole church? Does it include Friday night prayer groups, for example?”
His thumb lay across his palm. “Fourth, does ‘silent’ really mean ‘silent’ and what does it mean when it says that they became ‘more silent’?”
In First Corinthians fourteen, Paul brings in the whole comparison with the law and the silence of women: does the law really still apply? Why did he say that? Sixth,” Herm’s other hand appeared above the table, “there seems to be some difference between the way Jesus conducted his ministry and the things that Paul said. Seventh, there is the whole discussion about whether we are talking about authority or influence.”
During Herm’s monologue, Eutychus had finished wiping his plate with the last piece of bread and had pushed his it to the side. Laying his fork and knife neatly across the middle as Herm had done. “My wife has a bit of an attitude about the way the whole thing is being handled, actually. She doesn’t see any reason that she should not be able to do all the things the men do.”
Herm smiled. “Marna is not the only one who struggles with that. Penelope is at the other extreme though, and prefers not to appear in front of the congregation and she is very comfortable with that.”
“I know. It drives Marna crazy because she respects Penny so much,” Eutychus said. He slipped back against the corner of the booth, making himself comfortable for the rest of the conversation. “She doesn’t understand how your wife, with so much talent, so much to give and with such deep biblical understanding, can hold that line.”
As he finished speaking Gracie sidled up to the table. “Ya done now?” she asked as she started gathering the remnants of lunch into a pile she could carry.
“Yes, Gracie,” said Herm. “Unless Mr. Scrubb wants more tea.” He looked over at Eutychus. “We need a few minutes to finish our conversation so if you just leave the check, that would be fine.”
Eutychus shook his head. Gracie dropped the check on the table and gathered her pile. Herm’s focus came back to the conversation.
“Has Marna ever felt that Penelope has ever looked down on her for holding that opinion?”
Eutychus had to think for a moment. Penny Foley was one of the most graceful and accepting women he knew. He knew from experience and scripture that no one was flawless, but Penny had his attention and respect for her reverence for God and her love and respect of other people. “No, but in some respects that is not the point. Marna has been a disciple for seventeen years—yet this issue just never seems to go away. Even when we think it has gone away, it comes back—like a bad penny.”
Herm pursed his lips then smiled. “One would think that with as much study and exegesis of the scriptures, we would be able to come to some conclusion, wouldn’t you?”
Eutychus smiled. He knew he was playing into Herm’s lead and it was easier to play along than stay in suspense. “One would think,” he said, “and somehow I think you have a conclusion to propose.”
“You are beginning to know me, Eut.” Herm sat up from the corner of the booth and leaned forward with both arms crossed and leaning on the Formica. “Maybe, just maybe, we should finally admit that this is a disputable matter.”
“Well, we have been disputing it long enough, haven’t we?”
“Exactly, but we have never had the courage to officially declare it a disputable matter; and there is a big distinction between the two.”
“Okay—”
“Do you remember a few years back, when we took such a strong stance on alcohol consumption?”
Eutychus nodded.
“After a number of people pointed out that Paul specifically fingers this as a disputable matter in First Corinthians, we finally admitted that it was.”
“I remember it well, and look what has happened. We now have a chemical recovery program trying to help disciples deal with alcohol problems.”
“Yes, but I argue that some of them already had those problems, but they were well hidden behind the fear of exposure because of the rules. Besides, the downstream effects of applying biblical principals correctly should not keep us from applying them. In some ways it is a greater test of the individual’s character and righteousness to be forced to exercise their freedom and be responsible about it. It’s part of the maturing process for the church.”
Eutychus looked at his watch and smiled. “Okay. What does this have to do with women’s role?”
“I thought you’d never ask!” Herm leaned closer and unfolded his arms so he could talk with his hands. “If we were finally able to admit that this was truly a disputable matter, at least parts of it, then it would take the discussion out of the assembly and put the onus of responsibility for being godly straight into the laps of individuals to study out what it means to them, and make a faithful decision about what they believe.”
“Clarify what you mean by ‘parts of it’.”
“There are elements of the issue that may not be disputable, such as Paul’s references in Timothy about not allowing a woman to have authority over a man, in the teaching of men. Even that though has some interesting sidebar discussions such as the definition of when the woman has ‘authority’.”
“What do you mean?”
“Well, if the elders—who have the overall authority to direct the affairs of the church—decided that your wife was the best equipped woman in the church for teaching us about financial responsibility about our retirement plans, which in fact, she may be, then they might ask her to address the men on this topic; to educate them on what they need to know and do to be responsible. Would she be taking authority or would she be working under the proper authority of the elders?”
Eutychus had never thought about it that way. “That’s a worthy discussion—maybe next week.”
“Anyway,” Herm continued, “if we could identify what is disputable, then the issue becomes an issue of personal resolution with God on the women’s part and an issue of acceptance for the rest of us.”
“Like Romans fourteen kinda’ stuff?”
“Exactly. Take first Corinthians fourteen for example. My wife, has read through that numerous times, and to whatever depth she has personally studied it and listened to the countless arguments about it, she has decided that she should not address the congregation. She is like the person in Romans fourteen who has decided not to eat meat. She is fully convinced in her own mind and therefore does not sin, according to the last two verses of that chapter.
“On the other hand, suppose Marna has taken the same passage, studied it, prayed about it, perhaps even fasted over her response to it. She has sought advice and then come to the conclusion before God that it should be okay for her to speak before the men. She then has to take full responsibility for her action before God and given it over fully to God’s judgment of her action. If by faith she feels she can do so, then according to the same passage—”
“Romans fourteen?”
“—right, then she should be able to speak and she does so without sinning. And the rest of us need to accept her faith to do so and not pass judgment on it or her. However, if she has not studied this out and made it a faith of her own and taken this responsibility, she may in fact, be sinning.”
“Interesting.”
“In this way, the maturity of the whole congregation is called into task: those whose faith allows this type of sharing have to take personal responsibility to be righteous in it and realize the seriousness of the task, and those who do not must accept those who do without judgment. Interestingly, even if I personally disagree, I am unable to know the other’s faith and even if her action is sinful because of a lack of faith—it is not a matter of salvation for me; only for her. I will only be judged by my acceptance of her faith.”
Eutychus had never thought about it this way. “It would take a lot of maturity.”
Herm was not ready to sit back. “This kind of faith would have to be deliberate. By that I mean, it is not a decision that is made because it is permissible for women to address a group by the decision of others, but because she has decided she can by faith and also that it is beneficial to address the group. Even the one who has faith to do so, should consider each event differently to see whether it is best to do so.”
“For example—”
“Well suppose your wife was in Tirana, Albania—which is a Muslim culture. It might be considered rude or inappropriate for her to speak in the assembly because it is culturally unacceptable for women to do so. Even though it is permissible, it may harm the faith of the hearers if they have determined, by their faith, that it is inappropriate or even unscriptural.”
Herm looked at his watch. “I’m going to need to be going pretty soon. Does this make sense to you? Does it seem scriptural?”
Eutychus shook his head. “I will have to think about it and look at those passages again. I’ve never considered it this way—don’t think Marna has either … and it may solve some other issues too. I grew up in a church where some of the women always wore hats to church, often with little veils that hung over their eyes. Not everyone did it, just a few, but no one seemed to care.”
“It’s a similar argument that allowed them to do that and not break fellowship.” Herm paused be fore he changed direction back to the original argument. “There is another condition that should be considered,” he said as he sat forward and took the meal check from the table where Gracie had left it.
Eutychus reached for his coat. “What’s that?”
“Like Tirana.”
“Absolutely. That is a matter of faith also, isn’t it? In that case, the faith of the individual must submit to the will of leadership. That also, is an appropriate attitude of submission to the need of the group.”
Herm dropped fifteen dollars on the table as he stood up.
“Do you think its possible to go the other way?” Eutychus asked. “—for the leaders to decide that it is always acceptable for women to share?”
Herm hitched his shoulders to adjust his trench coat. “I suppose it’s possible, but I would have to wonder why such a passage would be in the Bible if it were never an issue.” He waved Eutychus out of the booth. “The effort we have to put into thinking as we live the life of a Christian can never be shortcut. It’s much easier to decide we have a solution once and never have to think of it again, but I don’t think God affords mature Christians that path.”
The cold fall air forced Eutychus to take a deep breath as Herm opened the door to the Elbib diner. “See you tomorrow night,” he said.
Herm smiled and nodded as he pulled his keys from his coat. “Until then,” he said.
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