********** 3/17/94 7:55 PM Forum CO [Moderator] | Welcome everyone to the conference. Our guest is Dave | deBronkart. Dave deBronkart | (bow) [Moderator] | Dave is a sysop of the ADD forum and is preparing a book | about Thomas Edison. Dave, ADD has been called the Edison | Trait. When Edison was a kid did he show ADD traits? Dave deBronkart | Sure did! | There's an important point, one that needs to be made at | the outset: as Hallowell points out in his new book, | "It's dangerous to diagnose the dead" (g), because you | can't tell what they were actually like. But especially | in the case of ADD, which is a strictly behavioral | diagnosis, based solely on observed behaviors, it's not | unreasonable (in my opinion) to ask, "Given what we know | of this person's life, would a clinician today diagnose the | same person as having ADD?" And in Edison's case, there's | little doubt. (By the way, feel free to interrupt, or I'll | go on for 3 days.(g)) [Moderator] | Steven? Steven Foust | deB, can't we also make judgements on them based on | autobiographical (or biographical) works? Dave deBronkart | Yes, that's the whole point: the only resource we really | have, in something like ADD, is the available written | record. [Moderator] | Did Edison have an autobiography? Dave deBronkart | Edison didn't have an autobiography, and one challenge is | that most of his biographies are mostly legend, constructed | by his 2d wife, whom he married at age 38... Steven Foust | OK. How would an autobiography be "weighed" vs. a biography? Dave deBronkart | Good question, Steve, in Edison's case, one would have to | be extra careful of an autobiography, because as with many | good entrepreneurs (g), he was a bit of a huckster.(G) But | there's one biography that stands out as well researched, | The one by Robert Conot. for instance, it's the only one | that points out that he was NOT known as Thomas, any time | in his life, until his second wife took over - he was known | by his middle name, as Al (for Alva). That's how distorted | his public image is. [Moderator] | Did Edison concentrate on one area, or was he "all over"? | Did he limit his work? Dave deBronkart | Nope, he didn't limit his work. Let me go back to your | first question. For the record, his childhood is full of | instances that would today be cause for an ADD diagnosis | (if not conduct disorder): | He set the family barn on fire "to see what it would do"; | he went swimming with a friend in a waterhole, and when the | friend disappeared underwater, he didn't know what to make | of it so he went home; | in school, he was fidgety, blurted things out, wouldn't wait | his turn, wouldn't listen when he was supposed to, was puny | and uncoordinated, was razzed and bullied by classmates. | (All these, btw, are from the Conot biography, which is the | one that's well researched.) [Moderator] | How much formal education did he have? Dave deBronkart | Formal education: three different schools, plus home | schooling, up to age 11 - *not* abnormal for someone in | those days. In fact this is an example of how Edison | promoted his own false legend: he claimed to have had almost | no formal schooling, when in fact he had a typical amount, | and continued to take classes (e.g. at Cooper Union in NYC) | as an adult. But that doesn't change the key diagnostic | point: he couldn't stand to sit still and learn by rote, | he *had* to be doing things himself, hands-on. Next | question?(g) [Moderator] | He always emphasized the positive and self-promoted. | If he was ADD, how did he manage to be productive? Dave deBronkart | HEY! I resent that question! (g) | *I'm* ADD, and I just had a hell of a productive day, | despite having had only 1.5 hrs of sleep last night (on an | airplane all night), and having had 3.5 hrs/night for the 2 | previous nights. In fact, today I got as much done as I do | in some weeks (True). And I wrote a program for a client, | on a rush basis, that worked on the first try, and solved | the problem. [Moderator] | Allow me to restate: How did he marshall his creativity? Dave deBronkart | First, he was a classic example of someone who needed a | partner in order to produce. His mind spewed out ideas | faster than he himself could turn them into experiments. | Only when he had partners capturing them did his phenomenal | patent rate occur: 75/year, at times. | Second, he refused to work normal hours: he often went to | bed when the sun came up, *if* he came to bed. (He was also | a major sugar-and-caffeine junky, btw.) [Moderator] | Morgan, go ahead. Morgan | I'm curious about what form these productive partnerships | took. How did they work? Dave deBronkart | Good question. | He had two partners, when he was at his best: One made good | drawings of the ideas, the other made working models that | could be perfected. (In other words, he stumbled onto the | method of having someone else fill in the skills he lacked: | team building.) STEVE SIMON | All of the famous "ADD" people in history seem to have been | ADHD. Do you know of any of these famous folks who were ADD | without the hyperactivity? [Moderator] | Yes, was Edison more ADD or ADHD? Dave deBronkart | Good question, Steve - don't know, off the top of my head. | The record of his adult life doens't talk much about | fidgetiness. [Moderator] | Go ahead, Morgan. Morgan | Well... Was he the one who worked out the form of the | partnerships or was he helped into it, perhaps by his wife | or another interested party? Dave deBronkart | Definitely NOT by his first wife, but in fact his second | wife did remake his life, including changing his public | image to the point of his publicly known name! But for the | first 30+ years, he was aggressive, the one who started | things. [Moderator] | ok Jan, your turn. Jan | Did these parteners receive recognition. Design, and | implementation? Dave deBronkart | Yes, their names are on many patents - and Edison in fact | was generous with Batchelor, his main long-term partner, | giving him 50% of royalties from his companies, which had an | odd effect: since Edison himself spent everything he touched | (sound familiar?(g)), Edison himself never got filthy filthy | rich, but Batchelor quietly did accumulate quite a lot. [Moderator] | Edison seems to qualify as ADDult by his impulsiveness! Dave deBronkart | Yes. In fact, the ways in which he matches today's | entrepreneurs are pretty amusing. I've known a few | entrepreneurs, and to a one, they hate paperwork, tend to | deal with finances by ranting and raving, are *brutal* as | supervisors, offering not much more of a supervisory palette | than "Whip 'em into a frenzy" (g), and all that applies to | Edison, in spades, except his supervisory palette may have | been more limited. (G) [Moderator] | Do we know much what Edison thought his strengths were? | (Susan, just a minute) Dave deBronkart | Huh! Good question. Let me think about it. (He had a huge | ego, that's for sure.) [Moderator] | Go ahead susan Susan Burgess | What was that about his publicly known name? Dave deBronkart | He was born Thomas Alva Edison, and was known by his middle | name (Al) all his life, until his second wife, at age 38, | decided to remake his public image. Thus, everything you | have ever read or seen that talks about Thomas Edison is a | derived secondary product of the PR machine surrounding him | in the second half of his life! | For instance, the movie "Young Tom Edison" is a total crock: | there *was* no "Tom Edison" until middle age. Now I want to | start tying this in to ADD, okay? Susan Burgess | Thanks. [Moderator] | Sounds good. Dave deBronkart | Can I can I? Thanks.(g) | Now, the question arises: so what if he was ADD? Well, a | couple of things. | First, what if a kid with exactly that activity profile were | plopped into today's school system, where he wasn't allowed | to hit the road at age 11, as Edison did (getting a job on a | train, living in 17 cities in 11 years), but instead was | made to sit still the whole time, with diagnoses etc etc | etc? This is not an academic question, it's dead serious, | as stories like Ginsu's Carl make clear: what would have | happened if impulsive young Edison had been put in a | hammerlock and/or sat on? [Moderator] | go ahead, Morgan Morgan | I suspect we'd be living in a vastly different world. | Thomas Edison would have remained Al Edison, denied the | opportunities he seized to use the gifts of ADD to all of | our advantages. Dave deBronkart | PRECISELY. And let me point out that the kid who DID | emerge... Morgan | Scary. And there are other little Al Edison's out there | being beaten down by the system. Dave deBronkart | Yes. Let me point out, btw, that the kid who did emerge was | hardly an angel. My point isnt' that leaving someone to | his/her own devices produces flowers (g). He was geeky, | annoyed people with his constant practical jokes, didn't | know when to shut up, ruined his workplace often by | dismantling things, spilling battery acid, etc. The point, | to the contrary, is that the strengths flourished only | because they weren't squashed, because he ended up with | enough breathing room to be as he was and not get shot in | the process.(g) Jan | Another question regarding self-medicating: other than | caffine etc... any hints to drugs? [Moderator] | But Edison never tried to change himself, that we know of? | Or "medicate" as Jan mentioned? Dave deBronkart | No, to the contrary, Edison didn't medicate except sugar and | caffeine but that was major, evidently: his whole life, his | lunch was nothing but apple pie and coffee, dinner too, | often. No evidence of any drug abuse. (Alcoholism in his | family.) Steven Foust | How can we be sure, since at that time certain drugs | (cocaine) were not outlawed yet? Dave deBronkart | Good question, Steve - I don't know of any evidence either | way. [Moderator] | He created opportunities for himself by forging | parnterships, and creating friendships with the likes of | Henry Ford. What else did he do to help himself? Dave deBronkart | Hmmmm... Good question. I dont' know that any business per | se came out of liaisons with Ford and the like. [Moderator] | ok Susan Susan Burgess | Have you looked at any other inventors regarding ADD? Dave deBronkart | No, I haven't personally, but Thom (Hartmann) and (Dr. Ned) | Hallowell both point to Ben Franklin. [Moderator] | What else about Edison's "ADD" can we learn from? Dave deBronkart | I think his life would have been easier if he'd been | conscious of his limits and accepted help. For instance, | money was a constant PITA to him. But, like many forum | members, he felt he *should* be able to manage it, so bills | would pile up while he had plenty of money in the bank, | until people were suing him, then he'd go on a binge, | answering all his mail and writing checks for days, and, | sometimes, since he never knew how much he had, he'd run | out, and then he'd go into a frenzy to finish some | invention and sell it to get cash. [Moderator] | Your point is we should take help when we need it. Dave deBronkart | Yes, thanks for saying it concisely.(g) [Moderator] | Go ahead Morgan Morgan | Seems to me that one thing he did really well was to accept | his own rhythms in regard to time so that he could be so | incredibly productive, letting himself go on work binges | when he had the flow and crashing when it was over. Dave deBronkart | (oooo, nice point!) | Yes! In fact, Morgan, I'm just realizing something myself: | I *wish* I could always be productive by being short on | sleep, but I'm just figuring out that what does it is to | have a couple of good nights' sleep first *then* go on a | low-sleep binge. [Moderator] | Go ahead deidra. Deidra/FL | Sorry I missed the beginning. Did he work strange hours? Ie. | was he a night owl? Dave deBronkart | Sure did! | He was lousy as a supervisor, because he often went home | when everyone else was arriving, constantly worked through | the night, would nap, sometimes, under a staircase, | spreading out newspapers as a mattress, or he'd just crawl | up on a lab bench and sleep there. Sometimes he'd work 36 | hrs straight, or more, with just these naps, then go home | and topple into bed, with his good suit still on, stained | with chemicals. [Moderator] | It's hard to advise people to work strange hours, but maybe | we all need to "go with the flow" whenever we can. Wonder if | he ever said "That's the way I am." Dave deBronkart | (Weirdo.(g)) | Excellent point, Karen! In fact, the Conot biography has | several cases where he demonstrates what we now call "Expert | blaming" skills, a not uncommon ADD trait. For instance, | "You cannot expect a man [this in a letter to his investors] | to invent all day and all night, and then still have energy | left to worry about details like finance.(g))" [Moderator] | The downside is he must have had disappointments in his | life. eh? (If people with ADD can learn from Edison's life, | maybe we can learn from his disappointments.) Dave deBronkart | Yes, many disappointmetns. | For one thing, he was a lousy husband, and a fairly detached | parent. He seemed self-centered (something that screams out | from Hallowell's pages) but wasn't selfish, was very | generous, yet wasn't nurturing to wife or kids. Also had | many, many ideas and companies that didn't pan out. [Moderator] | go ahead Morgan Morgan | So he had it figured out that financial genius wasn't likely | to go with his kind of genius? (Going back a tad). [Moderator] | Comment deB? Dave deBronkart | No, he *didn't* figure it out. He thought "Since I"m smart, | whatever the problem is, it must not be ME."(g) [Moderator] | Go ahead Jan. Jan | Sorry to bring this up , what about sexual orientation? Dave deBronkart | (Sound familiar to any parents out there?) Up, I think.(g) | Seriously, I know of no indication of anything other than | ordinary hetero male. One thing: he was fascinated by Edward | Muibridge's photo studies of motion, which (mysteriously) | HAD to be done with nudes, and found it necessary (ahem) to | do some of the studies himself, using ladies as his | subjects, of course. (That answer your question?) [Moderator] | ok Jan? Jan | No. I was wondering, regarding: homosexuality. does that | spell it out? Dave deBronkart | No indication of homosexuality that I know of, Jan. [Moderator] | You've made some great points, Dave about learning from | Edison's life. Any other hints? Dave deBronkart | Any other hints: yes. As I said in my msg on the forum, | "beware your own style's hazards" several of his relatives | were alcoholics, and one nephew, who showed promise of being | as clever as Edison himself, was very high-stimulus-seeking, | and got into a wild crowd in Paris, and ended up dead as a | result of too many risky activities. [Moderator] | How tragic! Dave deBronkart | Who knows what the guy would have invented, he was just 22 | or so when he died, I think, though Edison had already put | him in charge of some things. [Moderator] | What was Edison's lifespan? Dave deBronkart | Almost 80, I think. I'll look it up... | Yes, 84. 1,093 patents. [Moderator] | What a life of accomplishment! | Go ahead Susan Susan Burgess | Would you summarize the positive things about ADD that we | can learn from Edison's life? Dave deBronkart | Sure, thanks - then we can wind this up - | First, if we accept that Edison was ADD, as all the evidence | suggests, then it's pretty evident that the "bing-bing-bing | mind" or, as he put it, "My kaleidoscopic brain," was | pivotal in his creativity: constantly thinking of things, | putting ideas together, cross-pollenating from one project | to another. At one point he had over 100 experiments going | at once. | Next, and perhaps most important, is that he didn't put his | effort into dwelling on what he *couldn't* do. Rather, he | focused his energy on finding those "islands of competence," | as one of the ADD docs describes it at conferences, and | nurturing them. | This reminds me of the parable at the start of last year's | great little book "Soar with your Strengths." In the | parable, a rabbit and duck go to school together. The rabbit | loves school the first day, where they teach running. But | when they cover flying on the second day, the rabbit breaks | a leg, and the school focuses on setting up a remedial | flying program for him.(ggg) | Far more sensible is to focus on your strengths. [Moderator] | Thank you for being our guest. A transcript of this | conference will be placed in the ADD Forum library.