John Koskinen's Responses to Questions 
from Paula Gordon
Concerning National and Global Aspects of Y2K






                 Introduction

                 In March,  2000,  approximately two weeks before his tenure as head
             of the President's Council on Year 2000 Conversion came to an end, John
             Koskinen agreed to respond to a written set of questions concerning Y2K. 
             I submitted the following list of questions to him on March 20.  I received
             his responses on March 22.   I later asked for and received his permission
             to quote his responses.

                 My thanks to John Koskinen for so graciously agreeing to respond to
             this set of questions and for allowing his responses to be quoted.  I share
             this material in the hope that these questions and responses will help focus
             light on Y2K, on what happened prior to the rollover and what has been
             occurring to date.
 

              The Questions

                 The list includes 25 different topics and approximately 60 questions.
             The questions were sent by e-mail.  The following is a sample of the form in
             which the questions were sent:
 

            1)  Incident Reports

             I understand that there were 6000 incident reports received by ICC in the
             first five days of the year.

             ~ First, is this true?  Were there 6000 incident reports received by ICC in the
             first five days of the year?

             ~ How many more reports have been received to date?

             ~ Has this data been made available?

             ~ If it has not been made available, will it be made available?

             ~ If it cannot be made available because of the names of companies and
             business that are mentioned, could the incident reports be made public if
             these names were deleted?
 

            The Responses
 

                 Mr. Koskinen's responses to the questions are interspersed
             throughout each section.  I mention this in order to clarify that what follows
             is not a transcript of a "live dialogue", but rather responses to one list of
             pre-submitted e-mailed questions.

                 What is reprinted here includes every single one of his e-mailed
             responses.  All of these responses appear in their entirety with the
             exception of a few edits indicated by "........."   These few deletions do not
             alter the meaning of his responses to the questions that were asked.

                 I did not correct any typos in the responses that he e-mailed me.
 

            Other Modifications
 

                 I have modified several of my own questions in the list that appear
             below.  I replaced two specific references with more general descriptors
             owing to the potentially sensitive nature of the information included in the
             original question.  I have also added a few specific references and made
             some references more precise.  All modifications appear in brackets.

                 I have added "PG NOTES" after some of the questions and responses. 
             Some of these notes contain background material concerning the basis for the
             questions.  Some of the notes include comments in response to Mr. Koskinen's 
             answers. In some instances, I have also added information gathered after Mr.
             Koskinen sent me his responses.
 

          Some Recommended References
 

                 The reader may find it helpful to review or be aware of the following
             references.  These references should help put the questions and answers in
             a broader context.  I have also attached appendices that include materials
             that are not readily accessible.
 

             Reference A ~ The February 29, 2000 Senate Report  (see 
           http://www.senate.gov/~y2k/documents/final.pdf)  For a list of reported
             incidents involving Y2K,  see the appendix in this pdf document or see
           http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002iY6

             Reference  B ~ The March 29, 2000 Final Report of the President's Council
             on Year 2000 Conversion  (http://www.y2k.gov/docs/LASTREP3.htm )

             Reference C ~ January 17, 2000 Comments and Impact Ratings (Paula
             Gordon) (http://users.rcn.com/pgordon/y2k/.   Click on "Comments,
             Essays, and Op-Ed Pieces")

             Reference D ~ Presentations by Olivia Bosch, Rosanne Hynes, and others
             at the January 24 -25, 2000 Conference in Livermore,
             California sponsored by Lawrence Livermore
             National Laboratory  (http://cgsr.llnl.gov   Click on January 24 - 25, 2000
             Conference on Y2K, then click on Agenda)

             Reference E ~ Grassroots Information Coordination Center Web site: This
             Web site focuses on Y2K and infrastructure concerns.  It serves as a
             repository of media coverage, wire service reports, government reports and
             the like.   The Grassroots Information Coordination Center Web site at
             http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Grassroots%20Informa
             tion%20Coordination%20Center%20%28GICC%29

             Reference F ~ Glitch Central at http://www.ciaosystems.com/glitchcentral.htm is a Web site
             that has been tracking reports of Y2K-related problems.
 

                 Explanatory Note Concerning the Use of Some Unnamed Sources
 

             There are many people who are in a position to provide needed information
             or expertise concerning Y2K who feel little, if any inclination to do so. In
             their minds, the disincentives to being forthcoming concerning problems or
             issues relating to Y2K may far outweigh any possible incentives.  The
             following is a list of some major reasons that individuals may refrain from
             speaking out or may require that they remain anonymous when they do:

             ~ fear of losing a job, jeopardizing a contract, or otherwise adversely
             affecting one's career or business,

             ~ liability concerns or fear of litigation,

             ~ fear of other possible consequences or reprisals

             ~ Non Disclosure Agreements preventing the sharing of proprietary
             information,

             ~ organizational or peer pressure,

             ~ a desire to avoid controversy,

             ~ a climate that can prove hostile to people who are candid about sensitive
             or controversial Y2K-related concerns.

             For these and other reasons, it has been necessary for me to promise
             anonymity to a number of sources who have provided me information.
 

                                        *******
 

                John Koskinen's Responses to Questions from Paula Gordon

                       Concerning National and Global Aspects of Y2K

                                     March 22, 2000

                               (With Notes Added 4/4/2000)
 
 

             1) Incident Reports

             Paula Gordon:  I understand that there were 6000 incident reports received
             by the Information Coordination Center (ICC) in the first five days of the
             year.

             First, is this true?  Were there 6000 incident reports received by ICC in
             the first five days of the year?

             John Koskinen:  I love rumors.  While I don't know the final number of
             events, there were nothing like 6,000.  If there were, we would have advised
             people of that fact to counter the media claims that Y2K really had not been
             much of a problem.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000): Since receiving Mr. Koskinen's response, I checked again
             with my primary source regarding the extraordinarily large number of
             incident reports that were received in the first days following the
             rollover.  This source assures me that there were many thousands of incident
             reports within the first four to five days of the year.  (The previous
             mention of "6000" had been a ballpark figure.)  It may be possible that Mr.
             Koskinen has discounted any reports of incidents that he felt were of "no
             significance".   It may also be that only the incidents that were thought by
             ICC staff to be significant were brought to his attention.

             (PG):   How many more reports have been received to date?  Has this data
             been made available?

             JK:  Every glitch of any significance was made public since we needed to
             establish that the world really had met and conquered a significant
             challenge.

             (PG):  If it has not been made available, will it be made available?  If it
             cannot be made available because of the names of companies and
             business that are mentioned, could the incident reports be made public if
             these names were deleted?

             JK:  The information will be available in the Presidential records.

             PG NOTE 4/4/2000   It is good to know that these reports will be made
             available in "the Presidential records".
 

            2) The "Powering Down" of the National and Global Infrastructure
 

             PG:  I have heard a wide range of figures concerning the extent to which
             national and global infrastructure were "powered down".    Do you have any
             data on this?

             JK:  No

             (PG):   Did the President's Council urge the "powering down" of the
             infrastructure?

             JK:  Absolutely not.  We said, in the face of rumors that some pipelines were
             going to shut, that each company needed to make that decision on its own.
             All we asked was that they coordinate their plans with their local
             utilities and emergency managers.

             Several transit authorities noted that they would stop for a few minutes
             over the rollover, but, with our encouragement, they all made those
             announcements to the public.

             (PG):   If so,  did you have reason to believe that there would be such a
             widespread effort to "comply"?

             JK:  There is no information that there was a widespread effort to comply.....

             (PG):  Or did "powering down" efforts come as a surprise to the President's
             Council?    I recall at the October 7  [1999]  briefing on the chemical industry
             that  there did not seem to be a call to "power down" chemical plants.  As I
             recall,  there was concern that shutting down production could have its own
             problems.

             JK:  We were not surprised because there's no evidence that a significant
             powering down occurred.

             PG NOTE 4/4/2000:  There have been numerous reports by reputable
             individuals in and out of government concerning the "powering down" of 
             specific sectors and regions.   It is something of a mystery that others close
             to what was happening should have reported "powering down" efforts, while
             Mr. Koskinen knows of "no evidence that a significant powering down
             occurred."
 

             3) The ICC
 

             PG:  Did the ICC fulfill its stated purpose?

             JK:  Yes

             (PG):  Did the purpose of the ICC change after the first week or so of
             January?

             JK:  No

             (PG):   To what extent did  the ICC take a proactive stance?  For instance,
             we had exchanged e-mail prior to the rollover concerning how the ICC  (or
             IY2KCC?) would be alerting others of problems that might be triggered a few
             hours later in another part of the world.  The case in point was a Chinese
             nuclear power plant that was nearly identical to ones in France.  The idea
             was that if the facility in China had problems, the similar facilities in
             France would be immediately notified.   Was this done?    By the same
             token,  was such action taken concerning the nine or so problems in the first
             hours at Japanese nuclear power plants?

             JK:  There was no occasion to warn others of glitches that occurred that
             might affect them since there were no such incidents.  We publicized fully
             every glitch, including those with the monitoring systems at the Japanese
             plants,  as they occurred, but it was fairly clear that those were local events
             --which turned out to be the case.

             PG  NOTE  4/4/2000:   Perhaps, the question was not as clear as it might
             have been.   Prior to the rollover, it had been my understanding that when a
             specific instrument, system, or piece of machinery,  etc. failed, that
             potentially interested parties in other parts of the world would be notified so
             that they would be forewarned of the possibility of similar failures.
 

             4) The (December 13, 1999)  Fact Sheet on Baseline Sector Data  [See
             attached appendices]
 

             PG:  Does additional material exist on baseline data beyond this fact sheet
             and did ICC make use of additional baseline data beyond the data in the
             fact sheet?

             JK:  Anything of interest or significance was published.  Our goals were to
             get that information out, not keep it to ourselves.

             (PG):  What use was made of the baseline data that were compiled prior to
             the rollover?

             JK:  We educated the press and the public about the fact that things go
             wrong everyday and they should not assume that a failure on January 1 was
             necessarily a Y2K failure.

             Since there were not a significant number of Y2K failures, the benchmarks
             were not needed or used to make judgments about whether failures
             reported were Y2K or normal occurrences.

             (PG):   Why in some instances on the fact sheet is the focus solely on a few
             days period of time right around the rollover?   Many IT consequences as
             well as embedded systems failures can take weeks, if not months to
             manifest as problems.

             JK:  The focus generally was on the what happens every day -- not just
             December 31.  If a failure occurred later, the benchmarks were still relevant.

             As you know, the fear that glitches would occur later and would be serious
             turned out to be unfounded.

             (PG):  Comparative data that I have seen in all high hazard sectors show an
             incidence of problems in all of these sectors at record highs when compared
             with the same time frame  (January and/or February) in prior years.    Has
             the ICC tracked the uncommonly high number of problems involving the oil
             and  gas sector, the chemical sector, nuclear power plants, planes, and
             trains?

             JK:  No.

             (PG):  Has the ICC been aware of the comparisons with prior year incidents
             that others have worked on?  I thought that this had been the reason for ICC
             collecting baseline data, so that such comparisons could be done.
             For instance,  I do not recall the ICC reporting anything about problems
             with refinery or pipeline problems.  According to some sources, the
             problems have been at an all time high since the first of the year.   Indeed I
             know of a report that shows that during the first part of January,  the number
             of explosions involving natural gas, methane, and propane was over 1000%
             higher than the same period in prior years.  (This particular report was
             based on OSHA data, Product Safety Lists, and the UN's OSHA-like data
             base.)

             JK:   The problems you cite have not been identified by anyone with
             knowledge of the events as having anything to do with Y2K.

             (PG):   Did the ICC gather information concerning refinery explosions or
             unscheduled maintenance and pipeline ruptures or explosions?

             JK:  We collected information that anyone responsibly could establish was a
             Y2K failure.  While you've been focused on these explosions, they have not
             been identified as being Y2K related, nor have they created any significant
             problems for the public or the economy.

             (PG):  If such information was not gathered by ICC, was it gathered by any
             government agency?

             JK:  Not for Y2K purposes.  I don't know of any other collections or analyses,
             but all the agencies reported to us -- and we to the public -- Y2K
             glitches.  If we could have found a Y2K problem in a pipeline or refinery,
             we would have been delighted to tell the press and the public about it to
             remind them of the significance of all the work that had been done in
             safely moving the world into the 21st century.

             (PG):  If it was not gathered, why wasn't it gathered?

             PG NOTE 4/4/2000:   The responses to Topic 4 are most interesting.   Mr.
             Koskinen is not denying that there were an excessive number of problems 
             of the kinds that I have noted.  He is saying that he was not personally
             aware of anyone "with knowledge of the events" who was making the
             connection between Y2K and the excessive number of problems that were
             occurring.
 

            5) Concerns Regarding Possible Electric Power Problems and Actual
             Problems
 

             PG:  Joe Weiss [of the Electric Power Research Institute] stated at the
             Lawrence Livermore Conference in January  that the industry did not know
             how things would turn out.   One person I shared this with was quite upset
             when I shared this with him.  He felt that had the public been told about this
             uncertainty that there would have been more effort to prepare just in case
             something did go wrong.  He feels that instead the public was subjected to a
             round of Russian Roulette that we luckily won.  He does not feel that this is
             the way that public policy should be conducted.  Do you have any
             comments?

             JK:  Calling this Russian Roulette is silly.  I'm sorry your friend is upset,
             but if you look back at the industry and government pronouncements you'll
             see that the public was, in fact, warned to prepare for much more than
             actually happened anywhere.

             (PG):   What is the reason that the ICC has made no mention of the reports
             around the time of the rollover of the thirty some problems with electric
             utilities in the U.S.?

             JK:  I don't know where you're getting your information.  No one has
             established that any problems with utilities were Y2K.  The press was all
             over the place and they did not raise them this issue either.  Your sources
             seem to be operating in the dark, so to speak.

             (PG):  What is the reason that the ICC has made no mention of the reports
             around the time of the rollover of the scores of problems with electric
             utilities that occurred around the world?

             JK:  Because there were no such reports other than those we reported.  You
             keep assuming that we were trying not to report problems.  If you reread my
             briefings, you will see that we reported issues that were so minor people
             normally would never mention them, because we were concerned that the
             public and the press would conclude that Y2K was nothing but hype.

             (PG):  It appears to be the case that a problem or a failure was not reported
             as a "reportable failure" if the problem or failure was quickly worked around
             of if there was no disruption of service owing to "workarounds" or contingency 
             plans. It this correct?

             JK:  This was not our policy.  I am sure that organizations here and around
             the world did fix some problems quickly and not report them and I so advised 
             the press during my briefings during the rollover.

             (PG):  It would be helpful if all the "non reported failures" could now be
             reported so that the public would understand how extensive the problems
             had been and how great the possibility of disruptions had been. Also the
             public would be apt to have a far better appreciation of the extraordinary
             efforts that went into contingency planning and crisis management here and
             around the world.  Can that story be told now?

             JK: ..... I can assure you that we've been putting out information -- as Bruce
             McConnell did at the IYCC and the Senate report did -- on any reports we
             have had about Y2K failures.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000):  Several comments:

             ~ There is an untold story concerning the extent to which contingency
             planning and crisis management efforts helped ensure that there were a
             minimum of problems around the time of the rollover.

             ~ Failures or malfunctions were not always reported as "problems" if they
             were "worked around" or other steps were taken that prevented larger
             problems.

             ~ It is interesting to note the different problems that were reported by
             different sources.

             ~ It should also be noted that there has been inadequate attention given to
             date to the disincentives to report problems in both the public and the
             private sectors.

             ~ More will become known concerning private sector failures that were not
             publicly reported during the first three months of the year with the filing
             of quarterly reports, SEC reports, insurance claims, and law suits.
 

            6) Nuclear Power Plants Massive and Last Minute Turning Back of
             Clocks
 

             PG:  It is my understanding that considerable effort was made in December
             of 1999 to convince the nuclear power industry to roll back clocks to 1972
             and that this was indeed done.  Is this the case?

             JK:  Not to my knowledge.  I have heard nothing about this.

             (PG)  To what extent did such a roll back take place?

             JK:  I have no information on this.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000):   It is interesting that Mr. Koskinen did not know about
             these efforts that took place in December of 1999.

             (PG)  If it did occur, what are the implications for future remediation efforts
             that will now be needed to turn short term fixes into long term or permanent
             fixes?
 

             7) The Chemical Safety Board's CIRC Reports
 

             PG:   Were the CIRC reports a part of the ICC's collected data?

             JK:  The ICC received reports on Y2K failures from all agencies of the
             government.  CIRC reports are not reports of Y2K failures.

             (PG):   It is my understanding that the CIRC reports are not intended to track
             all problems, that they represent only a portion of problems that occur
             involving the chemical sector.  If that is so, was ICC relying primarily on
             industry sources for reports?

             JK:  We relied upon industries, state and local governments and regulators,
             and all Federal agencies for reports -- along with a monitoring of all press
             reports here and around the world.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000):   The CIRC reports are not intended to capture all
             problems.   Owing to litigation and liability issues, insurance claims,  and
             bottomline concerns, it would be more surprising than not if the reports of
             incidents that have occurred since the first of the year included any
             specific or detailed mention of suspected or proven Y2K-related IT systems
             problems or failures or embedded systems, PLC-related, or SCADA system
             problems or failures. It appears from what Mr. Koskinen was saying that the
             ICC was relying on industries and regulators among others to suggest any
             possible connections with the problems that occurred and Y2K.  If no
             connection to Y2K was identified or no possible connection was suspected or
             acknowledged,  then it sounds as if no report of the problem would have been
             forwarded to the ICC in the first place.
 

             8) EPA Reports
 

             PG:  Was the ICC getting reports from EPA?

             JK:  Yes.

             (PG)  Were those reports made public?

             JK:  Yes, to the extent that they provided any information on Y2K glitches.
             Otherwise, they were incorporated in our generaly conclusions of no
             reported problems.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000)  Again, owing to litigation and liability issues,
             insurance claims, and bottomline concerns, it would be more surprising than
             not if the reports of incidents that have occurred since the first of the
             year included any specific or detailed mention of suspected or proven
             Y2K-related IT systems problems or failures or embedded systems,
             PLC-related, or SCADA system problems or failures. It appears from what Mr.
             Koskinen was saying that the ICC was relying on industries and regulators
             among others to suggest any possible connections with the problems that
             occurred and Y2K.  If no connection to Y2K was identified or no possible
             connection was suspected or acknowledged,  then it sounds as if no report of
             the problem would have been forwarded to the ICC in the first place.
 

             9) DOT's Office of Pipeline Safety
 

             PG:   Was ICC getting reports from the Office of Pipeline Safety?

             JK:  Yes, through the Department of Transportation which monitored that
             information.

             (PG):  Were all such reports being tracked?

             JK:  Yes, the deparments compiled all Y2K information and forwarded it to
             experts in the ICC

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000)  As noted before, owing to litigation and liability
             issues, insurance claims, and bottomline concerns, it would be more
             surprising than not if the reports of incidents that have occurred since the
             first of the year included any specific or detailed mention of suspected or
             proven Y2K-related IT systems problems or failures or embedded systems,
             PLC-related, or SCADA system problems or failures. It appears from what Mr.
             Koskinen was saying that the ICC was relying on industries and regulators
             among others to suggest any possible connections with the problems that
             occurred and Y2K.  If no connection to Y2K was identified or no possible
             connection was suspected or acknowledged,  then it sounds as if no report of
             the problem would have been forwarded to the ICC in the first place.

            10)  Sectors in the US and Abroad That Were Not Fully Remediated
 

             PG:  Little has been said concerning those sectors that did not fully
             remediate.  If Iraq did in fact take a fix on failure approach to its oil
             and gas sector,  then it should be in dire straits and in desperate need of
             replacement parts.  Indeed, some are saying that Iraq is in desperate need
             of replacement parts.

             Some in the oil and gas sector in the U.S. had stated in 1999 in SEC
             filings and elsewhere that they were planning to fix on failure.  Could the
             increase in problems in the U.S. be related to Y2K and embedded
             systems-related problems?

             JK:  No one in authority has established this -- or even maintained it.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000):   For coverage concerning the UN and Iraq's requests
             for equipment, see the attached appendices.   The International Energy Agency
             (IEA) in its report of May 1999 (also in the attached appendices)
             anticipated that non-remediated embedded systems could result in refinery
             problems.
 

            11) Force Majeures in the Oil and Gas Sector Since the Rollover
 

             PG:  Has the ICC made any mention of the four oil and gas sector-related
             "Force Majeures"  that were declared in various parts of the world since the
             rollover?  One of these has been in the U.S.  Was no connection seen
             between these and Y2K?

             JK:  No one with responsibility has maintained that these had anything to do
             with Y2K.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000)  Force Majeures are extremely rare.  To have four
             declared within such a short period of time would seem to be worthy of
             investigation. 
             If no one at the Department of Energy, the Federal Energy Regulatory
             Commission (FERC) or the IEA was actively looking into the possible
             connection between Y2K and these Force Majeures, then there would have been
             no report forwarded to the ICC in the first place.  It seems quite unlikely
             that ICC would have made such a determination independently.  Again, owing
             to liability and litigation issues, insurance claims, and bottomline
             concerns, it would be more surprising than not if the reports of the four
             Force Majeures included any specific or detailed mention of suspected or
             proven embedded systems, PLC-related, or SCADA system failures.  It appears
             from what Mr. Koskinen was saying was that the ICC was relying on industries
             and regulators among others to suggest any possible connections with the
             problems that occurred and Y2K.
 

            12).... Problems Being Reported [in One of the Largest Departments of
             the Federal Government]
 

             There have been reports concerning large numbers of problems.... [in one
             of the largest departments of the government].  Some of these problems appear 
             to have fallen into the category of "non-reportable failures".   Unless
             there is a security concern, it would seem helpful to bring such problems to
             the attention of policymakers, since [the problems] appear to [have 
             significant] implications.   The government's intelligence agencies should
             surely be aware as well.

             JK:  We received no such reports and are not aware of any such failures.

             PG NOTE  (4/4/2000):  In the original version of this question that I sent to
             Mr. Koskinen 3/20/2000, I had identified the department in question.  This
             may well be an instance of the failure of "bad news" to travel upward and
             reach those in key roles of responsibility.  I am puzzled that in this
             instance he expressed no interest in checking out the information I provided
             him.
 

            13) Ramping Down and Apparent Phasing Out of Y2K-Related Federal Efforts
 

             PG:  At the present time, it is my understanding that all Federal agency Y2K
             efforts, including intelligence agencies and oversight efforts of
             Congressional Committees, have been or are in the process of being phased
             out.   I don't know the extent to which the General Accounting Office will
             keep a focus on Y2K.  The Manufacturing Extension Partnership Program of
             NIST is scheduled to be phased out in June.  The only exception that I know
             of at this time is the "informal" effort that is to continue under the aegis
             of a Deputy or Assistant Director of OMB. Is this correct?

             JK:  I don't know that any of this, other than the ICC and the President's
             Council are closing down, is correct.

             PG  NOTE (4/4/2000):  I find this response puzzling as well.

             (PG):   If it is correct, who will be making sure that short term fixes will be
             replaced by permanent fixes?  Who will be taking a long range view and
             considering the lessons that are being learned from Y2K and embedded systems
             challenges.

             JK:  Those running organizations, in the public and private sectors, including
             CEO's and CIOs, are responsible for maintaining the integrity of their
             operations.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000):  To the best of my knowledge, the resources and the
             assemblage of talent focused on Y2K have been or are being dismantled
             throughout the Federal Government, including the Congress.  There seems
             to be little possibility that there will be support for any significant
             ongoing efforts.  Unless the General Accounting Office continues to focus 
             on Y2K, there seems to be little or no chance that there will be any ongoing
             assessment of Y2K efforts and impacts or any monitoring and assessment of
             current or future Y2K-related problems.  This throws into question the 
             ongoing efforts that are needed to identify and address current and future
             problems.  It also throws into question the completion of ongoing efforts
             that are needed to complete the remediation of partially or temporarily
             remediated systems.

          14) Challenges in Addressing Continuing Y2K and  Embedded Systems
             Concerns within Agencies and Departments

             PG:  It has come to my attention that in one of the largest department of the
             Federal government, it has become politically incorrect to talk about Y2K.
             Yet in this same Department, many non mission critical systems have yet to
             be remediated.  Problems are talked about as "computer problems".  How is
             it going to be possible to continue to dedicate expertise and resources to
             ongoing remediation problems in such a climate?  Also, if those who have
             the expertise are not long with the agency or  have been scattered to
             different parts of the agency, how will follow up work get done and how
             will on going challenges be met?

             JK:  I am not aware of any agency with such a problem.
 

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000):  This comment is quite perplexing.
 

             15)  The Ongoing Role of OMB in Tracking Y2K  and Embedded
             Systems Problems

             PG:  Who will be in charge?   Will this be a part time responsibility?
             What will be  the nature of these efforts?  Will ongoing efforts include the
             tracking of what is currently an abnormally high incidence of problems,
             explosions, and accidents, etc. involving the following sectors: the oil and
             gas sector, the chemical sector, nuclear power plants, planes, and trains? 
             Will problems involving water and sewage systems also be tracked?  Will
             the progress be tracked of those sectors  that did not remediate prior to the
             rollover?

             JK:  No one has found any indication that embedded chip problems resulted
             in any significant problems thus far.  Going forward, organizations remain
             responsible for their operations.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000):  To the best of my knowledge, two persons from the
             Federal government with embedded systems expertise participated in the
             November 9, 1999 meeting on embedded systems convened the
             President's Council.   A half dozen or so individuals from the private sector
             who had significant hands-on embedded systems expertise were also at that
             meeting.   When Mr. Koskinen says that "no one has found any indication
             that embedded chip problems resulted in any significant problems thus far", 
             several questions come to mind:   Does "no one" mean no one in
             government?   Does "no one" means "no person with expertise in embedded
             systems"?  If it means "no person with expertise in embedded systems",  I
             know persons with embedded systems expertise who would disagree.   The
             meaning of his statements may also turn on what he means by "any
             significant problems".   There have been numerous problems involving loss
             of life, property damage,  and major ecological damage, all of which have
             either been connected to Y2K or have been strongly suspected of being
             Y2K-related.
 

            16)  Expertise in Government Regarding Embedded Systems

             PG:  Now that Gary Fisher of the National Institute for Standards and
             Technology  is no longer working on embedded systems concerns at NIST,
             who at NIST or elsewhere is going to be providing expertise on this matter to
             OMB?

             Who else in the Federal government can OMB call on for expertise in
             following these problems and conferring regarding policy?

             I have not as yet been able to identify anyone as yet at the Department of
             Energy who is familiar with the prediction that embedded systems failures
             could lead to an increase in refinery outages.   The IEA report of May 1999
             for a discussion of the fact that the failure of embedded systems could
             indeed result in refinery problems.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000)  The IEA report is quoted in the attached appendices.

             JK:  As noted, you and a few others are the only remaining people who still
             are waiting for the fabled embedded chip disasters to occur.  The consensus
             is that, fortunately, the problem was overstated and has not resulted in any
             major problems.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000):  Embedded systems failures have occurred.  They
             have not been widely acknowledged as yet as being problems relating to
             Y2K.  This was true before the rollover and it continues to be true now.   I
             am not "waiting for embedded chip disasters to occur."    From my vantage
             point, embedded systems failures are continuing to occur.   The number of
             "predicted coincidences" grows daily.     The increasing number of incidents
             of reported problems should not come as a surprise since many embedded
             systems in a wide range of sectors were either not remediated or not
             adequately remediated.

             Mr. Koskinen formally conferred with a group of embedded systems experts
             was on November 9, 1999.   The intent of the meeting was to see if
             consensus could be reached regarding a number of issues involving
             embedded systems, issues that had been vigorously debated for well over a
             year.  The subsequent statement released by Mr. Koskinen, along with a
             related press release are included in the attached appendices.  Additional
             material on embedded systems is also included in the appendices.

             If embedded systems experts helped guide post-rollover assessments, it
             would be helpful to find out about their perspectives and their areas of
             expertise.
 

             17) Plane-Related Issues

             PG:  Is there anyone at National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)  who
             is looking into the possible connection between problems with the
             automated systems of the MD 80 and 90 series of planes and the problems
             that this series of planes has experienced?  I spoke with the Chairman of
             the NTSB in early March and he indicated that this was not an angle that
             was being explored by the NTSB at that time.  I do not know if that has
             subsequently changed.

             JK:  Y2K has not been implicated in any of those issues -- no one with any
             real knowledge ever could find a Y2K problem in airplanes that threatened
             their ability to fly.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000):    A very long list of known and suspect problems
             could be cited.   Some relevant new reports are noted here.   These are
             from main stream media sources that are posted on the Grassroots
             Information Coordination Center Web site at
             http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Grassroots%20Informa
             tion%20Coordination%20Center%20%28GICC%29

             ~  In the early hours of the rollover two planes in Europe developed the
             same problem within a half hour of each other.  Both were grounded as a
             result until the problem was corrected.

             ~  Problems in the MD 80 and 90 series have occurred in abnormally high
             numbers during the first months of the year.    Problems with this series of
             planes continue to occur to this day.  The number of MD 80 and 90 series
             problems during this time period far exceeds the number of problems
             occurring in comparable time periods in previous years.

             ~  A back up computer system problem was involved in the serious problem
             that another aircraft experienced in early March.

             ~  Another series of planes had electrical problems as of 4/4/2000.

             It would not surprise me if no one at the NTSB or the FAA has as yet begun
             to look seriously into a possible Y2K connection and the exceedingly high
             number of problems involving planes that have occurred since the beginning
             of the year.   If no one has been looking into such a connection,  it may only
             mean that no software engineers with the necessary expertise have as yet
             come forward or none have as yet been called on to confer concerning the
             possible connection between Y2K, electrical and automated systems
             problems or failures, and the problems that have been occurring.    As with
             other matters that involve complex technical issues,  it can be hard for
             officials who do not have that particular technical expertise to identify those
             who do, seek their counsel,  benefit from their assessments and advice, and
             incorporate what they learn into decisionmaking, policymaking, and problem
             solving processes.
 

            18) Short Term Fixes in General

             PG:   Is anyone in the Federal government looking at the issue of what
             needs to be done to ensure that all the various kinds of short term fixes that
             were implemented will be replaced by permanent fixes?

             JK:  CIOs.    [Chief Information Officers]
 

             (PG):   With the disbanding of offices and teams that addressed Y2K issues,
             who will be overseeing and driving the remediation on the non mission
             critical systems that were not remediated prior to the rollover.

             JK:  CIOs.
 

            19)  Your Comments Concerning the Valued Role Played by Those
             Who Raised the Concern of the Public Regarding Y2K

             PG:  In late January  in a  [State Department press release dated January
             27] you were quoted as saying that you were of the opinion two years ago
             that it would be "the end of the world as we knew it" if the necessary
             remediation was not done in time.  You gave credit to those who raised the
             alarm for helping to focus attention on the problem.    Is this an accurate
             restatement of what you said?    If not, would you clarify what you meant?

             PG NOTE 4/4/2000    His words in that interview were as follows:

             "It was clear two years ago to me after talking with a lot of  experts, if
             nobody did anything else beyond what they had already done up until two
             years ago, that the world as we knew it would end."     The January 27, 2000
             transcript of the interview is in the attached appendices.)
 

             JK: .....I said that many times and continue to believe it.  However, I
             think it is now time to declare victory and move on.   Claiming that the
             world is still about to end casts doubt on the good work done before.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000)   During the months prior to the rollover, my impact
             ratings regarding the possible long term impact of Y2K were provisionally
             between a 5.5 and 9.5.  This estimate was contingent upon the extent to
             which the public sector, as well as the private sector succeeded in efforts to
             minimize impacts.    In my January 17 Comments piece,  I offered my
             impact rating for the first quarter of the year only.  That rating was 
             provisionally between a 2.5 and 5.5, this time depending on several factors,
             including the severity of fuel shortfalls.   (http://users.rcn.com/pgordon/y2k/,
             click on "Comments, Essays, and Op-Ed Pieces").  (The 10 point impact
             survey scale referred to here is described in Part 1 of my White Paper on
             Y2K at the same URL just cited.)

             I have come to understand that much remains to be publicly disclosed
             concerning all of the efforts that went into minimizing Y2K impacts.   This
             includes unanticipated as well as unpublicized actions that were taken prior
             to the rollover.  In some instances such actions were taken as late as 
             December.   It also includes the extensive contingency planning and crisis
             management efforts that helped minimize problems here and abroad.   I
             hope that far more become known concerning the efforts that were made.
             My intention is certainly not to cast doubt on the extraordinary
             accomplishments of the thousands of people here and around the world to
             avert major problems.

             I have come to understand that, for a variety of reasons,  the problems that
             have occurred and are still occurring are not being acknowledged as being
             Y2K-related or possibly Y2K-related.  Since official government monitoring
             efforts of the sort needed are not in place at this time, it will not be an easy
             task to assess what has happened and what is happening.  In addition, 
             there is no assurance that ongoing problems are being adequately addressed
             now. There is no assurance that they will be adequately addressed in the
             future.   I would also like to see the continuation of efforts that are
             still needed.

             I think that there is a chance that the evidence concerning the nature and
             scope of the problems that have occurred and of problems that are ongoing
             will become more widely acknowledged as time goes by.   There appears to
             be a whole host of legal, business, social/psychological, organizational,
             economic, and even political reasons that to date have been serving as
             barriers to such acknowledgment.

             (PG):  If this is an accurate rendering of what you said in January of this
             year,  I wonder why you didn't say it earlier?  [The reference here goes back
             to Mr. Koskinen's statements quoted in the January 27 State Department
             press release that were noted at the beginning of this section.]

             JK: ....... I made comments like that from the start.  I continually noted 
             that my disagreement with those thinking the world would come to an end was
             not a disagreement about the magnitude of the problem but with their view
             that the problem could not be solved -- or could not be solved without a
             national or world-wide declaration of emergency with the public advised to
             be prepared for weeks or months of problems.  I thought then -- and was
             proved correct -- that we could and would solve this problem if we could
             organize the government, the US economy, and countries around the
             world to deal effectively with the issue.  That was done.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000):   Worst case Y2K scenarios involving a simultaneous
             convergence of infrastructure disruptions and technological disasters, now
             or in the foreseeable future,  have been averted.   This is certainly a great
             and most welcome blessing.  The fact that worst case scenarios have been
             averted  is not however tantamount to "solving the problem".    Problems of
             a lesser magnitude and less daunting character remain.   Not all of the wide
             range of problems that remain are being openly acknowledged and
             addressed.  Some in fact are not being acknowledged or addressed at all. 
             It seems to me that a scenario is unfolding in which neither the public nor
             the private sector is doing all that needs to be done to complete the work
             that was begun.  Neither sector appears to be taking steps to forestall
             problems that could yet emerge over the next year or more.   Neither appear
             to be focusing adequate attention on what is happening now.    Problems
             continue to occur.   They are not receiving adequate attention.  They are not
             being adequately addressed.   A scenario is continuing to unfold that is
             costly in terms of loss of life, public health and safety consequences,
             environmental impacts, and socioeconomic impacts, certainly not as costly
             as the worst case scenarios, but nonetheless costly.   The public and private
             sectors appear to have declared victory prematurely.   In doing so,  support
             has been withdrawn from ongoing efforts that are needed.    Challenges
             remain even though the dimensions of the problem have been greatly
             reduced.   If these Y2K-related challenges that remain are ignored or fail to
             be adequately addressed, needless losses will continue to occur and
             needless harm will result.   The apparent reluctance to deal with ongoing
             problems augurs poorly for our ability to deal with future challenges and
             threats that may prove even more daunting than Y2K.
 

            20) Ongoing and Future Problems Involving Technology

             PG:  As corroborated by the notes of some closed door meetings involving
             the President's Council in December 1998 and January 1999, it has been
             concluded by some that the Council was consciously trying to keep the full
             potential seriousness of Y2K from the public and to do so through a  public
             relations campaign that was designed with that purpose in mind.    If that
             is an accurate description of what actually happened, then these questions
             follow:

             JK:  ....... you know that is not an accurate description of those meetings or
             our policies......

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000):   My perception of the direction that the Council's
             public information efforts were taking was corroborated by my reading of the
             official notes of the December 16, 1998 meeting of the Council.  These
             notes can be requested under the Freedom of Information Act.  The
             document is entitled  President's Council on Year 2000 Conversion Meeting
             Minutes.  The meeting was convened by the Chair of the President's
             Council at 2:05 p.m. on December 16, 1998 in Meeting Room E of the
             Federal Reserve Building, 20th and C Streets, NW, Washington, DC. 
             Perhaps these minutes will also be made available in "Presidential papers".

             This meeting included a discussion concerning "ways to work with the
             media".   The meeting minutes were widely distributed in the early part of
             1999.   In this way the substance of that discussion became  known to many
             people outside of government.   An attendee of the meeting on realizing that
             I had seen the minutes confirmed the substance of this discussion.

             My perceptions were also confirmed when I heard some plenary panel
             presentations at the Second Global Y2K National Coordinators Meeting at
             the United Nations in New York on June 22, 1999.   These presentations
             were by representatives from two extremely prestigious media
             organizations.   The presenters openly noted their adoption of the approach
             to Y2K and public information that the President's Council had been urging.

             Additional perspectives concerning the nature of the Council's approach to
             public information efforts can be found in a paper that focuses on the health
             sector and the pharmaceutical industry issued by the Center for Y2K &
             Society in March, 2000.   (Http://www.y2kcenter.org).

             (PG):   If and when the public comes to realize the nature of the public
             relations campaign that was carried out, will they loose faith in their
             government?

             Will the public believe their government in the future if they come to
             believe that in the recent past their government chose to only partially
             inform them concerning the possible threats that we were facing?

             What will the implications of such "managing of perceptions"  be for
             addressing future problems that constitute a threat to the public?

             If you had it to do all over again, what would you change, if anything,
             concerning the Council's apparent efforts to shape public perceptions
             concerning the nature and scope of the problem?

             JK:  Absolutely not, since your assumption that we were somehow
             nefariously shaping perceptions is incorrect.  We spent significant resources
             trying to bring facts -- not assertions -- to the public, comfortable that they
             would respond appropriately to those facts.  We did and they did.  In the
             end, the polls all showed that they believed the reports from federal, state
             and local governments and individual critical infrastructure companies that
             they were ready for Y2K.  And, in the end, to the dismay of some diehards,
             those reports and facts turned out to be absolutely correct.  I think
             that's what the public will remember about Y2K.
 

             21) Small Size of the Staff of the Council  (11 as of December 1999?)
 

             PG:  If you had it to do all over again, what would you change?

             JK:  Not one body.

             (PG):   If you had it to do all over again, would you include technical experts
             on your staff?

             JK: No.
 

             22) General Overall Approach
 

             PG:   If you had it to do all over again, what would you change, if anything?

             JK:  Nothing, including all the time I've spent discussing the issue with those
             who disagreed with our approach and criticized us vigorously, even though,
             after the fact, we were right and they were wrong.  It was an important
             dialogue and I'd do it again, as shown by the time I'm taking to respond to
             these questions.
 

             23) Insurance Claims and Law Suits

             PG:  Has the Council or the ICC been tracking insurance claims and law suits
             relating to Y2K?   I heard in January that a reinsurer for oil refineries
             had an unprecedented number of claims in the first weeks of the year.  Have
             you heard similar information?

             JK:  No.

             PG NOTE (4/42000)  I based my question in part on a communication that I
             received on January 23 from the head of a software engineering company. 
             He told of a long time associate of his who is a reinsurer who had over 100
             incidents reported in the first 20 days of the year that the reinsurer expected
             would likely "end up being claims".   The reinsurer noted that this was
             "atypical in the extreme."  Normally this company had only one or two claims
             for the month of January with annual totals running near 40 only "in a bad
             year".  According to my contact, the firm reinsures industrial policies,
             primarily "manufacturing, fuel, distillates, and transportation".   It seems
             important to track publicly available information concerning insurance claims
             along with related litigation,  as a means of increasing understanding
             concerning the nature and extent of Y2K-related impacts.  Such understanding 
             is needed in order to assess past efforts to address Y2K and
             inform current and future efforts.
 

             24) Specific Report of the Potential for a Chemical Plant Explosion with
             Major Environmental Consequences in [Another Country]
 

             Months ago [August 3, 1999], a copy of an e-mail was sent to me in error by
             someone [in the Federal Government].  I received an e-mail from you the
             same day asking me not to pass that e-mail on to others owing to the
             sensitivity of the contents.   I understand that millions of dollars went into
             doing the necessary remediation in [several  plants] and averting a major 
             problem.  I wonder if it is now possible to talk about this problem
             publicly.  If the name of the country should not be mentioned, can the part
             of the world
             be mentioned and some specifics about the seriousness of problem that
             had been averted?  I think that information concerning such problems can
             be very convincing to those who doubt that the work that was done was a
             worthwhile expenditure of time and money.   I think that information about
             such problems is also important for the public, the media, and public officials
             to know, so that they will more fully appreciate Y2K related threats and
             challenges.

             JK:  It was not clear then and is not now whether there was a major Y2K
             threat in that plant.

             PG NOTE (4/4/2000):   The problem involved several plants located in a
             heavily populated area.   The problem was acknowledged prior to the
             rollover as being Y2K-related.    This statement concerning the situation is
             not in keeping with my reading of the "sensitive" e-mail that was
             inadvertently sent to me or with other information that came to my attention
             several months ago.
 

            25) The Role that Multinational Corporations Played in Minimizing
             Infrastructure Problems in Other Parts of the World
 

             PG:  There seems to be an untold story here.  I hope that the role that
             corporations played can be made public.  They certainly deserve a great
             deal of credit.   Will there be some focus on this in your final report?

             JK:  You are very correct here.  Not only do they deserve credit, but their
             work around the world with their own facilities, with host governments and
             through information sharing with competitors was a significant part of the
             reason why the rest of the world did so well.  We'll try to bring that
             point to people's attention in our report and I appreciate your focus on
             it.

             PG  NOTE:  On page 22 of the Council's March 29, 2000 Final Report, the
             following brief statement is found:   "And in many industries,  large
             multi-national companies actually worked directly with their local
             counterparts and host countries to fix basic systems."
 

                                           ENDNOTE
 

             Our viewpoints concerning Y2K and the past two years obviously differ
             greatly in many ways.  Because of these differences, I appreciate even more
             the time that John Koskinen took to respond to the questions I sent him.
             This exchange has been helpful to me and I hope it will be of help to others
             who are continuing to try to make sense of what has happened and what is
             happening now.  I hope as a consequence that more positive energy might be
             directed toward ongoing efforts that are needed.  I hope that people will
             become acquainted with sources of information and other materials that will
             help advance their understanding.  Increasing understanding on all fronts
             seems key to increasing our capacity to address current as well as future
             challenges.
 

           ************************************************************************** *******
 

                             APPENDICES


             1) Transcript of State Department Interview with John Koskinen

             27 January 2000

             Transcript: What Happened to Y2K? Koskinen Speaks Out

            http://www.usia.gov/cgi-bin/washfile/display.pl?p=/products/washfile/latest&
             f=00012704.glt&t=/products/washfile/newsitem.shtml

             (Administration Y2K coordinator assesses global remediation) (4,650)

              The costly effort undertaken in the past two years to deal with the
              Year 2000 computer problem prevented massive disruptions in systems
              and services during the date rollover into the new millennium,
              according to White House Y2K coordinator John Koskinen.

              Koskinen, Chair of the President's Council on Year 2000 Conversion,
              said in a January 18 interview in Washington that the relatively
              problem-free date change that occurred is an indication not that the
              Y2K problem was not serious, but that the work devoted to fixing
              thousands of computer systems worldwide was successful.

              Koskinen said the absence of serious Y2K disruptions in developing
              countries, where remediation efforts had lagged behind those in
              industrial countries, is explained by the less intense reliance in
              those countries on digital technology, and by the fact that they were
              able to apply the lessons learned from dealing with the problem
              elsewhere.

              Koskinen spoke with the Office of International Information Program's
              Paul Malamud about the smooth transition into the year 2000, and the
              work that made it possible.

              Following is a transcript of the interview. In the transcript,
              "billion" equals 1,000 million.

              (begin transcript)

              Q: January 1 has come and gone, and reports show that there were fewer
              disruptions of computer operations and infrastructure, on a global
              basis, than some had feared. In retrospect, do you feel the advance
              publicity and the large amount of money that went into fixing computer
              systems worldwide was overblown? Could this have been handled by
              smaller "fixes" performed on an ad-hoc basis after January 1?

              A: I think a lot of people did do it in an ad hoc way, at the end, and
              seem to have gotten through it well. However, for organizations using
              large information technology structures there was no way they could do
              it at the last minute.

              The major banks around the world worked on this for several years
              together, because you are talking about organizations that have
              millions of lines of software in code that had to be fixed. In fact,
              one of the reasons that people thought the world, as a whole, was
              going to have difficulty was that it takes so long to work through
              those big systems.

              You have to distinguish governmental organizations and private-sector
              companies that had major software problems from organizations that had
              more straightforward information technology challenges. I think what
              happened was that some smaller organizations and governments have less
              reliance on complicated systems, and therefore, a lot of their systems
              either were not significantly affected by Y2K or they could take care

              of those in a relatively short period of time for relatively little
              money.

              When people started working on Y2K no one knew exactly the full impact
              of potential failures involving large networks of computers. In
              addition, no one knew where in power plants, telephones systems,
              chemical plants, date-sensitive "embedded processors" might have a Y2K
              problem or not. My favorite example is elevators. Two or three years
              ago, the assumption was that elevators were at risk. There was concern
              that some elevators -- if they were dependent on date-sensitive
              computer chips -- might malfunction. But after about a year of
              testing, it turned out elevators did not have a problem. This meant