Remembering the Rutland
Rutland Q&A
-page 8-
Q. #71 (11/19/00)
After Steamtown left Riverside in Bellows Falls there was a part of a steam locomotive left behind. It was the back quarter of a boiler and a cab. It was numbered one hundred and was rumored to be a Rutland locomotive. Do you know anything about this?
-George Newport
A. (11/19/00)
That cab was from [Rutland 0-6-0] engine 100. It was part of the Ludlow
collection that went to Steamtown and they left it behind at Riverside. It's still there
waiting for someone to fix it up. We, the GMRC, hoped to have a museum in the old Freight
house and place that inside but now that the frieight house is gone, I don't think it will
happen.
-Steve Mumley
A. (12/10/00)
I have always wondered what happened to the top of #100's cab. Photos of it on display in Bennington clearly show the cab was intact. This is just a guess, but in the late 1960's Steamtown got two very old and very derelict engines from somewhere out west. I think one was a 4-4-0 and the other a 4-6-0. They arrived by flat car and apparently to meet clearances their stacks had been removed and the tops of the cabs cut off. I remember them sitting rather forlornly on the back of the lot. Eventually they got put back together and I have always guessed that the top of #100's cab went to one of those engines. Does anyone know for sure?
-Bill Badger
Can you add anything more? Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #71.
Q. #72 (12/10/00)
In reference to the loss of shipping business due to the Panama Canal Act in 1915, what were the names of the ships owned by the Rutland Transit Company? I have found some names in the Bowling Green University lists but they cannot be searched by owner! As a related question where was the ferry slip in Ogdensburg for connection with the Canadian Pacific Car & Transfer Company?
-Robert Scherer
A. (12/13/00)
According to Shaughnessy in The Rutland Road the Rutland
Transit Company's fleet numbered six vessels. The vessels were named BENNINGTON,
BURLINGTON, BRANDON, MANCHESTER, RUTLAND and ARLINGTON (The Rutland Road, page
59). There are two pictures of the steamship BRANDON in The Rutland Road. I have
pictures of the BENNINGTON and the BURLINGTON, both of which seem to be of similar, if not
identical, construction to the BRANDON. Again Shaughnessy indicates that the RTC was
originally the Ogdensburg Transportation Company.
-Mike Sparks
A. (11/18/01)
I just did some more poking around the excellent website on Ogdensburgh NY history run by David Martin and Ted Como at http://www.tedcomo.com. One of the pages in the site is a copy of the 1892 Sanborn maps for the O&LC yards, which shows not one but two ferry slips. One was just past the passenger station at the base of the "peninsula". The other was behind freight house 7 at the northwest tip of the peninsula, pointing out into the channel of the St. Lawrence. Needless to say the yard was laid out quite differently then. The URL for the map is:
http://www.tedcomo.com/webphotos/san15.jpg
caution this is a HUGE file, but well worth the time it takes to download.
-Chris Martin
A. (12/16/01)
While perusing the Stearns Jenkins Collection at the University of Vermont's archives I
came across an interesting letter from the Rutland Railroad Company to a Mr. Willard L.
Groom of Chicago, Ill dated December 8, 1948. Apparently Mr. Groom was also looking
for information on the Rutland Transit Company. Some of the information provided to Mr.
Groom follows. One item in particular is that the sixth steel steamship was not the Manchester
as I indicated earlier [above] but the Ogdensburg.
The Rutland Transit Company (RTC) was incorporated in Vermont on December 14, 1899, being
a reorganization of the Ogdensburg Transit Company. At the date of establishment the RTC's
fleet consisted of 8 wooden steamers of approximately 2000 gross tons each. These ships
were the W.L. Frost, Governor Smith, H.R. James, F.H.
Prince, A. McVittie, J.R. Langdon, W.A. Haskell and the W.J.
Averill.
The first of the RTC's steel steamships, the Ogdensburg and the Rutland,
were purchased from American Ship Building Company (ASBC) in July, 1906. They were 242 ft.
long with a 43 ft. beam and a gross tonnage of 2329. ASBC delivered the Burlington
and the Bennington in July, 1908. These ships were 244 ft. long with a 40 ft. 2
in. beam and a gross tonnage of 2285. Brandon and Arlington were
delivered by ASBC in May, 1910. They were 244 ft. long with a 40 ft. 2 in. beam and gross
tonnage of 2338.
Subsequent to the enactment of the Panama Canal Act, the Burlington and the Bennington
were sold to the Alaska Steamship Company in Sept. and October, 1915. The Rutland
and the Ogdensburg were sold to the Pacific Alaska Navigation Company in 1915.
The disposition of the Arlington and the Brandon was not given.
In operation, regular sailings were made between Chicago or Duluth and Ogdensburg with
stops at Milwaukee, Cleveland and Buffalo in both directions. Eastbound traffic was
pricipally bulk grain handled through the elevator at Ogdensburg for trans-shipment east
by rail. Westbound cargoes were principally sugar, footwear and cotton goods.
Great stuff, but alas I found no plans or photos save a fair-quality newspaper clipping
(not dated) of the Burlington aground in Lake Michigan (3/4 view rear).
-Mike Sparks
Can you add more? Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #72.
Q. #73 (12/11/00)
What model paints or custom mixes match the green and yellow of the PS-1 that Kadee
did in HO? Has anyone encountered difficulty getting paint to adhere to the Kadee body? I
am aware of the controversy surrounding the roof "color" (galvanized vs. yellow)
and don't know what to do about that yet, although I'm sure if you weather anything
heavily enough no one will know what color it's supposed to be anyway. Is Champ's
decal acceptable, or do you prefer another manufacturer's?
-Doug Polinder
A. (01/05/01)
For the color chips I supplied Kadee, I used Floquil CNW Green and Accupaint D&H Yellow. I don't know if Kadee used exactly those colors, but they look close, provided you apply the yellow over a yellow primer. The Atlas caboose actually did use those colors, and the yellow looks a good deal different because the yellow was applied over the green.
-Chris Martin
A. (01/05/01)
Not to restart the PS-1 controversy, REALLY, but the new Railroad Cyclopedia #5
has a photo of Rutland #151 on page 14. The caption reads "painted yellow and
green with black ends and an unpainted galvanized roof and running board."
Pullman-Standard photo courtesy of the Smithsonian Institution, NMAH/Transportation,
Haskell and Barker Collection.
-Chuck Hladik
A. (01/10/01)
A couple of weeks ago I was browsing through the January 1983 issue of Model Railroader and ran across an article by the late Whit Towers on his Alturas & Lone Pine RR. One of the photos shows a Rutland PS-1 boxcar with what appears to be a galvanized (or at least a non-yellow) roof! It's a little hard to tell from the photo, but it may also be a yellow roof heavliy weathered. Given the discussion of the Kadee boxcar, I think it's interesting that someone like Towers, with no apparent interest in the Rutland, per se, was thinking about such things 20 years ago! I have no idea who manufactured the boxcar.
-Jay Conant
Have an opinion? Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #73.
Q. #74 (12/28/00)
Did all of the Rutland's refrigerator cars carry the word "REFRIGERATOR"? In Mr. Nimke's book (Volume I) it is clear that number 1899 had it. Did #1875 originally carry the word "REFRIGERATOR"? Also did #1875 [or others] carry the "Route of the Whippet" logo?
-Art Tonjes
A. (01/08/01)
According to the Rutland RR Mechanical Dept. lettering diagram for refrigerator cars
dated April 1, 1913 (one of a set reproduced by Bethlehem Car Works), the
word REFRIGERATOR was initially used on all reefers, and I suspect that this
practice continued until their demise. Photographic evidence (including the photo I
believe Art referred to above) indicates that the Rutland adopted a modified lettering
scheme (which included reducing the size of the REFRIGERATOR lettering and shifting it
off-center to the right) some time between WWI and WWII. Our (Rutland
Car Shops) forthcoming decal set for the Rutland 1875-1899 reefer kits will include
lettering for both schemes (along with The Whippet lettering). Last word I have
is that we should have the decals in time (just) for the Amherst Railway Society show at West Springfield,
Mass. on February 3-4.
In regards to the Whippet scheme, it is my understanding that it was applied to
most all reefers, boxcars and cabeese when the Whippet service was being marketed. While I
can't credit any source, I recall reading somewhere that the Whippet slogan was not
reapplied to cars shopped/repainted after WWII. Perhaps Jeff English or Steve
Mumley can shed some light here.
-Mike Sparks
Anything to add? If so, click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #74.
Q. #75 (12/30/00)
I am one of the fortunate guys to recently acquire an unpainted model by PFM of the L-1 mountain. Can you please advise of the correct paint scheme and recommended paint.
-Victor Piscione
A. (02/06/01)
I thought that this question had been answered once before? I remember mentioning Bruce Curry's article in Model Railroader's Paint Shop and a few discussions in regards to the various shades of RUTLAND green over the years.
It's Q#62 Rutland Green Hornets, part 2.
Also see Q#51 and Q#52.
-Rome Romano
A. (02/06/01)
Under no circumstances, Victor, should you begin your project until you have carefully studied the color photograph of Green Hornet #91 on pages 72-73 in the book Boston and Maine - Forest River and Mountain by Robert Willoughby Jones.
-Jim Dufour
Anything to add? Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #75.
Q. #76 (01/05/01)
I'm about to embark on adding Proctor to my layout and have scoured all of the usual photo sources: Shaughnessy, Nimke, Jones, RRHS Newsliner. As you might expect, there are many nice photos but nothing that's exactly what I need. I'm interested in the 1947 time period and would like photos that show the marble facilities that existed then; I'd also like to know what function the various buildings served. I think I've got a pretty good handle on the track layout but the building details seem to have changed quite a bit over the years. Do you know where I might get some info?
-Jay Conant
A. (01/07/01)
Concerning Vermont Marble Co. Have you tried to contact them directly??? When Vt.
Marble was bought by Pleuss Stauffer in the early eighties I photographed much of the
Proctor facility and the underground marble quarry at Danby for a corporate brochure.
While I don't remember exactly what buildings were used for what I do know they were still
sawing marble slabs in one of the old wood buildings at that time. The saws had to date
back to the turn of the century. Anyhow, Vermont Marble at that time had a pretty
extensive archive collection of photographs covering all their operations over the years.
Do they have them now? I'm clueless but it might be worth a try. Good luck
-Don Spiro
A. (05/26/03)
The Vermont Marble published a employees magazine "Chips" or "Marble Chips". This publication was available at the Proctor Free Library. Although the VMC is gone, I would expect the impact the impact the company had in the area would prompt the library to preserve the magazines.
My uncle used to work there and from his description of his work, Proctor was a finishing shop where the stone would be cut to the exact size to fit into the finished building. Also, the holes for the pins used to mount the stone to the structure would be drilled the unseen side of the stone.
-Charlie Ricci
Anything to add? Click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #76.
Q. #77 (01/11/01)
Does anyone know the tonnage ratings of the Rutland G-34 class 2-8-0s and H-6 class 2-8-2's, especially as they apply to the O&LC Division? From what I have seen in the Nimke books the heavy tonnage was eastbound (NYC out of Norwood and Malone) but you still had the ruling grade westbound through Champlain, NY, which was 1%?
-Joel Norman
A. (01/15/01)
Here is a copy of the Rutland tonnage ratings for the O&LC from the 1951 Rutland Employee Time Table #123. I hope it answers Joel's question. I would have typed it out but there was so much information that I thought everyone could benefit from the entire table.
-Glenn Annis
Q. #78 (01/14/01)
the O&LC Division at Ogdensburg, NY have a track connection with the New York Central line that also served that city?
-Jason W. Chenard
A. (01/15/01)
In answer to the question about the Rutland having a connection with the NYC at
Ogdensburg: NO, they did not. If fact the Rutland was on one side of town and the NYC was
on the other. NYC connections were made at Norwood and Malone Jct. on the O&LC,
Ogdensburg Sub-Division.
-Steve Mumley
A. (01/15/01)
There was no physical connection between the Rutland and the New York Central at
Ogdensburg. Only Rutland connections to NYC were at Norwood, Malone Junction and Chatham.
-Dwight Smith
Q. #79 (01/14/01)
Does anyone have dimensions and details for the battery boxes mounted on the Rutland #717-727 steel coaches? My eyes cannot discern what details are on the sides of the boxes in the Nimke book and other photos I have seen. I'm modeling in 1" scale (1/12 size). Little bumps may be OK in HO, but they're tougher to get away with in 1" scale. I can make masters and cast each of the details repeatedly in epoxy if I knew what they were.
-Joe Kavanagh
If you know please click here to email your response. Please refer to Q #79.
Q. #80 (01/27/01)
I am a volunteer working on a project for the Lake Champlain Maritime Museum
(LCMM) of Vergennes, Vermont which involves trying to determine how the rails on the top
of the floating drawbridges, or "drawboats," were kept aligned with the rails on
the trestles. Perhaps you are familiar with these floating drawbridges and specifically
with the one which crossed Lake Champlain from Larrabee's Point, VT to Ticonderoga, NY as
part of the Addison Branch of the Rutland Railroad. There was another drawbridge across
Bulwagga Bay on the west side of the lake between Port Henry and Crown Point, NY. There is
very little information on the Port Henry drawbridge but a little more on the Ticonderoga
drawbridge so I was trying to gather information on that bridge and perhaps be able to
extrapolate it with regard to the Port Henry drawbridge. These drawbridges consisted of
trestles built out from each shore with a 300 foot gap between the ends of them. The
purpose for this gap was to provide a channel for the passage of commercial lake boats.
The enabling legislation by the State of New York apparently required this channel, or so
says a detailed report by Peter Barranco, Jr., who I believe is on the
staff of the LCMM. The drawboats at Bulwagga Bay and Ticonderoga as well as those at
Rouse's Point, NY (part of the bridge from Alburgh, VT to Rouse's Point, NY) were located
during LCMM's mapping of the lake bottom project. I learned of the Bulwagga Bay boat by a
news story in my local paper and decided to visit the Iron Center in Port
Henry. Things went from there and now I'm up to my neck in this interesting affair.
I am looking for some confirmation that 56 pound rail was fairly light duty rail. I had
run across that phrase in an article by William Gove in the Autumn issue
of Vermont Life entitled The Troubled Addison Branch which was
cited in Mr. Barranco's report.
I was given the name and address of the Rutland Railroad Historical Society
by the NRHS. I have written to the Society in Rutland but as yet have
received no response. I asked the Society if it had any material on the drawbridge at
Ticonderoga and also if they had any records or drawings of the drawboats since Mr.
Barranco's report states that "the plans and modus operandi" of the drawbridge
are original and were made by a L. E. Roys, a 'Townsman' of Rutland. I
was hoping against hope that maybe, just maybe, a set of drawing was somewhere around and
that the drawings might show how the rails were kept aligned both horizontally and
vertically considering the variations in lake level and load on the boats.
Do you have any thoughts on where I might try next? I have just about reached a dead end.
It seems to me that the problem with these drawboats is very similar to that experienced
by railroad car ferries across rivers or harbors. Maybe I will explore that avenue. Thanks
for your consideration.
-Fred Hmiel
A. (01/27/01)
I would suggest two other sources for your research: The Rutland Historical Society (not to be confused with the Rutland RAILROAD Historical Society) and the library at Middlebury College, which I understand has a large collection of Vermont historical items. The RRHS is negotiating with them to be the repository of donated Rutland artifacts from society members.
56 lb. rail is very light by today's standards, but was probably quite common at
one time...but that is just a guess on my part....
Good luck in your endeavors.
-Jim Dufour
A. (01/28/01)
The Addison Railroad (Leicester Jct.-Larrabee's Point) was poorly constructed and was laid with light 56-pound iron rail in late 1871. In contrast, for many years main lines in this country and Canada have been laid with 110-155 pound (to the yard) steel rail.
Have you checked my chapter on the Addison Railroad in Volume I of my Railroads of Vermont? While it won't provide you with all the answers, there is quite a bit of info on the drawbridge you are researching.
-Bob Jones
A. (03/04/01)
I would guess that in the 1870's 56 pound rail was fairly common for branch and
shortline railroads. The Burlington & Lamoille, laid in 1877, was built with new, 56
pound rail.
-Jerry Fox
More on Ticonderoga Floating Drawbridge across Lake Champlain: (01/20/02)
I have just found out about, and received, a very good report on the Ticonderoga Floating Drawbridge across Lake Champlain to Addison Jct. on the D&H. This was part of the original route proposed (threatened) to bypass the Vermont Central between Burlington and Rouses Point. on the west side of the lake to make connection with the O&LC. It was prepared in 1995 by the Lake Champlain Basin Program and contains some very good historical facts about the three barges that served the site until its abandonment in 1923 and some additional information on the original concept span at Rouses Point. It also details the underwater archeology projects that have located the remains of the first two barges and speculates on what became of the third and last one, that tipped over and finally was the reason to abandon the route.
This interesting, and well done, publication is available for $ 5.00 from:
Lake Champlain Basin Program
54 West Shore Rd.: Box 204
Grand Isle, VT 05458
Make checks payable to "NEIWPCC"
-Jim Shaughnessy
Click here if you can help Fred with his worthwhile endeavor. Please refer to Q #80.
[Back to Rutland Q&A Directory]