Remembering the Rutland
Rutland Q&A

-page 4-

Q. #31   (12/25/99)  What color were the uniforms worn by the passenger trainmen in Rutland passenger service?  A few years ago there was an advertisement for a company in Vermont that was selling reproductions of the uniforms, hats and badges.   Do you know who they were and if they are still available?

-Thomas A. Matzell

A (12/26/99)   

Niilo A Korpi
Depot Hobbies & Antiques
43 Hemlock Rd.
Milton, VT  05468

(802) 893-4157

Sells or sold a Rutland conductor's hat reproduction.  The hat is black with gold banding and a brass conductor's badge. Niilo is involved in the Rutland, VT railroad show.

-Ray Muntz

A (01/02/00)      I have two Rutland caps in my collection. One is a Trainman's cap and the other is a Conductor's cap. These are originals, not reproductions. Both are made with black-colored fabric, with black patent leather visors. The cap style is sometimes referred to as the "Pillbox" style. The conductor's cap has two gold stripes - one just above the brim and the other about an inch and a half above that. It also has a brass colored cap badge with black enameled letters and brass colored buttons on either side (at the temples). The cap badge is marked RUTLAND RAILROAD over CONDUCTOR. The other cap does not have the stripes and the cap badge is nickeled brass with black enameled letters. The buttons on the side are silver colored and are dome-shaped as opposed to flat. The cap badge is the same shape as the conductors badge (both are a common shape for cap badges supplied by The American Railway Supply Company). This badge is marked RUTLAND RAILROAD over TRAINMAN.

The Winter-1999 issue (Vol. 30, No. 2) issue of Key, Lock and Lantern magazine has an article on railroad cap badges starting on page 6 featuring Michael J. Sullivan's collection of Rutland Railroad occupation badges. There were nine separate Ruland badges including these occupations: Agent, Station Agent, Asst. Station Agent, Conductor, Trainman, Brakeman, Baggage Master, Baggageman and Porter.

-Mark Rossiter

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Q. #32    (12/27/99)  What decal set is best for the Railworks Rutland marble-service flat?  Were the cars solid black with a wood deck? Has anyone tried using the commercially-available "stick-on" wood decking? Were the cross-deck load supports wood, too?

-Rob Davis

A (01/03/00)    The #2700 series flat cars were black in color with a wood deck. I painted mine using Floquil Engine Black for the steel areas and using Floquil Earth to simulate the wood deck. The large timbers on the marble service cars were also wood. I then used Floquil Driftwood and Grimy Black to weather the wood areas.

For decals I used a couple of different Champ sets to get all of the necessary lettering. Use Champ # HN-85 Rutland Road Name set for the lettering and numbers and I used HC-97 PRR 40' & 50' Flat Car set for the capacities such as LD Weight etc. Overspray with Floquil Flat and then some Dust and you're ready for a load. Florist gray rigid foam blocks were used to cut blocks of "quarried stone."

-Charlie Lehmann (Railworks)

Q. #33     (12/27/99) What decal set and paint combination is correct for the Railworks steam era #551 coach? Should it be the same light olive Railworks used on the painted milk cars?

-Rob Davis

A (01/03/00)    I used Champ Rutland Passenger set which is made in Yellow or Dulux Gold. It is not exactly the correct length but at the time the only game in town. I also used an olive-looking Pullman Green from Floquil by adding a few drops of red and a few drops of E-L Yellow until it looked O.K.

We supplied the art work to John Sheridan who does work for Microscale in an effort to have them make a correct Rutland set for passenger cars and milk cars and NYC material for those milk cars. Hopefully we'll see something soon.

-Charlie Lehmann (Railworks)

A (01/15/00)     A quick note about question 33 (passenger car paint colors): Testors Model Masters Custom Enamel "Olive Drab FS 34087" matches the current color used on 260 and 551 almost perfectly. The Model Master line of paints is readily available at hobby shops catering to military modelers, and a lot of the greens are worth considering for use on passenger cars. The color the Green Mountain used on 260 and 551 was chosen in consultation with Bob Adams, who was not unfamiliar with the doings of the paint shop during the days of the RUTLAND

-Chris Martin

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Q. #34     (12/27/99)  Regarding the Overland Models National Car milk flat with two "bell" tanks... has anyone tried to remove the tanks for painting, and if so, how? What decal sets exist for these cars? What are the proper bell tank lessee colors? I have heard Borden's used white, red, silver and light blue. Any good documentation? Was there more than one shape "bell" for different lessees?

-Rob Davis

A (12/30/99)   My tanks aren't soldered to the car body, so removing them for separate painting is easy. I was going to steal the decals out of an F&C kit to letter mine.

-Jim Otto

A (12/30/99)   Jim (answer above) is right.  I suspect that the tanks may be "stuck" due to the heavy clear lacquer applied by the manufacturer that seems to be a common trait with this particular model.  I suggest stripping this clear lacquer before painting them.  I have one that is stripped and one that is not and the difference is quite noticeable. 

The world desperately needs a proper HO set of decals for all the various lettering associated with the National Car container flat tanks.

The "legend of the tank colors" is as old as these cars and I am not going to declare what color you should paint them, although you could do worse than to copy Don Spiro's interpretation of the Borden's tanks in the Modeling the Milk Trains section.  Click here for a look. (Don adds his own comments below).  Companies known to have leased or owned tanks included Borden's, Hohneker's, Renkins, Dairymen's League, Sealtest and Sheffield Farms. There were at least three variations on the bell tank theme and it is not uncommon to see two different tanks on the same car.  Click here for an example.

-Jim Dufour

A (12/31/99)  I've never been 100% sure about how accurate the paint scheme I used on the NX flat car is. The flat car NX decals from F&C seem very close, the white Borden's tanks.......??? I had the decals so that's what I used. Light blue tanks I've never heard of but then again I always assumed all the Sheffield Farms "Sealect Milk" plaques were white, Bob Mohowski's original panel sez otherwise. In Paul Lubliner's color book on the O&W there is a photo of a green tank and a red tank on the same flat car. Unfortunately you don't see enough of the car to make any evaluaton as to what the lettering was.

There's a steam era photo in Bob Mohowski's Milk Train book of an Erie milk train entering Jersey City Terminal with a single Bordens tank on a flat car that is obviously red or green, even in a  black and white photo. Although the logo is different, Champ's Borden's Butterdish car decals are available in yellow for the red car and could be used on the red and green tanks. 

Packed in the parts bag that comes with the NX flat car is a brass plaque for "Renken's Dairy" in Brooklyn. What color were their tanks??? The Renken's tanks did travel on the Erie and I've heard from a few Erie modelers and historians that they were black???

Interesting information to track down for sure!

-Don Spiro

A (01/02/00)  I [have a] letter from Rusty Recordon [in which] Rusty reviewed the F&C kit of the National Car, not the Overland Models version. At any rate, in his letter he states that Bob Mohowski told him that the Abbott's tanks were blue. Wayne Sittner told of seeing red unmarked tanks on the O&W. Rusty states that the Pullman green tanks were lettered for Sheffield Farms. Rusty also believes that the Borden's tanks were colored similar to the butterdish milk cars, i.e. white with black letters, silver with black letters, and red with yellow letters. He mentions that a photo of one of the cars with two different colored tanks appeared in the milk car series that ran in the late 80's. My letter is dated June 23, 1989 so the series ran before that.

-Mark Rossiter

A (01/15/00)   Don Spiro mentions the photo on page 19 of Paul Lubliner's Morning Sun NYO&W book. The red tank is definitely a Bordens tank. The other tank I'm not quite as sure about...I'm not even sure of the color. I have in my own collection a color photo of one of these cars in which the sides of the 2 (Borden's) tanks seem to be about the same color as the tank in this photo, but the ends seem to be buff colored. I suspect the most accurate description this color is heavily weathered. These were unlettered Pullman Green tanks, which I understand were the tanks N.X. kept available for short term use by anybody. One minor nit to pick -- the reporting marks on the cars were N.X. (for National Car Co., a susbsidiary of Fruit Growers Express), not NAHX (which are one of the reporting marks for North American Car Line).

-Chris Martin

A (01/16/00)   Chris Martin is right on the money, the shot in the O&W book does show the Borden's lettering. I was thinking of the photo on the next page, page twenty. In that photo behind a 44 tonner are two flats and the tanks look black with no lettering visible whatsoever. The lettering on the flat car appears to be separate metal numbers and reporting marks rather than being painted on. Chris is also correct on the 'N X" markings. The decal set from F&C has NAHX reporting marks if memory serves me correct and had it not been for using a photo in Bob Mohowski's milk book [page 109] of a National car to letter the model I might have just went ahead and used the NAHX. In that same photo the lettering on the tanks seem, like those on the flat car, to be separately applied sheet metal letters. [Precision Scale did raised photo etched lettering on their red models of the Borden's Butterdish car.]

The plot thickens!

-Don Spiro

A (01/20/00)   As many of you have probably already determined, good color photos of the milk container flats are rare indeed. To date the best color photo I've found was taken by RRHS member Bob McColloch of NX 1411 in the Rutland/B&A yard in Chatham, NY in March 1956. The flat is loaded with two large "bell style" tanks painted maroon. The maroon paint looks similar to that used by the B&M. I feel pretty confident about the color as the car is well-lit and the tanks appear to have been recently painted (a shop date of 1-56 can just be made out on one of the tanks). Block lettering at the bottom corner of the container's sloped side skirt (on the valve end or end opposite the end where the tank end sticks out beyond the side skirt) reads "MILK AND MILK PRODUCTS". Just below the tank lettering are the tank numbers (somewhat hard to read but appear to be nos. 152 and 153). The numbers and letters are either painted-on or decals - definitely not placards. Just below the tank number, on the side of the tank's square-sided base, is lettering for the tank's lessee. Unfortunately the lettering cannot be read. If someone has access to switch lists or car reports for 1956 it may be possible to determine what creameries NX1411 was visiting and, from there, the lessee.

Another color photo of a milk container flat I've come across is from Bob's Photos. The flat car had a pair of bell-style tanks painted either red or maroon (the lighting is bad and the tanks appear to be heavily weathered). Notably, the tanks are lettered for Borden's in yellow. What is interesting about this is that it dispells the notion the Borden's used only the Borden-style tanks. In the mid-fifties, H. P. Hood purchased a number of the Sheffield Farms creameries. As Hood's is not known to have utilized detachable tank milk cars, it is possible that Borden's picked up milk container cars formerly assigned to Sheffield Farms. As far as I can tell, no milk container flats went to Boston via the Rutland, they all went to NYC (shipped by Sheffield Farms, Borden's and Dairymen's League).

For those of you just getting into researching the milk container flats (a personal favorite), I recommend two excellent articles published by Railroad Model Craftsman (RMC). They are Bob Mowhowski's "To market by rail: milk containers on flat cars", RMC May 1988 and Chuck Yungkurth's "To market by rail: privately-owned milk cars", RMC, March 1986. When checking out the March 86 issue of RMC don't miss the milk car supplement in the Editor's Notebook at the back of the issue. There is an excellent photo of a pair of small tanks (I believe these are either 2000 gallon or 2500 gallon capacity tanks) bearing Sealtest placards (Sealtest was a tradename for Sheffield Farms). While this is a black & white photo, the tanks appear to be either red or maroon.

Last but not least is Bob Mowhowski's O&W book already mentioned in this forum - a must for the milk car archeologist.

Regarding decals, the only decals that I am aware of for the NX flats are produced by Funaro & Camerlengo (stock # NX-1). The decal set includes lettering for the flat cars and for the tanks (Abbott's in white and Borden's, Renkens, Dairymen's League, and Sheffield Farms in black). Rutland Car Shops has these in stock ($4 per set post-paid) or they can be ordered direct from F&C.

So, what do we really know about milk container paint schemes? I think everyone will agree that the Borden's Borden-style tanks were originally painted white. But were they always white or did they get painted red as were the butterdish cars in later years? And, how long were these style tanks in service - were they replaced by the bell-style tanks or did the bell-style tanks merely supplement the existing inventory?

While the Sheffield Farms/Sealtest tanks are said to have been painted a dark red or maroon color (I favor maroon), does any documentation of this exist?  Likewise, I've heard that the Dairymen's League tanks were painted a dark green - again, has anyone seen a color photo or other documentation to support this? Chris Martin notes that milk tanks in pool service were painted a Pullman green color. I am wondering what is the source of this information.

I look forward to further discussion on this.

-Mike Sparks (Rutland Car Shops)

A (01/23/00)  Red or maroon???  In Morning Sun's D&H in Color volume by David R. Sweetland there's a photo on page 46 of one-half of a Borden's Butterdish car behind an RS-2 at Whitehall, New York. That this particular car is heavily weathered is an understatement. The lighting is even and overall color in the photo seems to have held up well. So is the car red or is it maroon?  In contrast to this photo, in Vintage Rails video on D&H steam there is a fleeting shot of a red Butterdish car passing under an overpass or signal bridge at Oneonta I believe. This car is pretty fresh paintwise and is a very bright red. The deck and a portion of the frame sill are red as well. Mark 1 Video has a new set on DL&W steam and there's yet another view of a red Butterdish car on the rear of a Hoboken-bound Sussex Branch train at Straeder's. This car is bright red as well and is the first time I've seen a Butterdish car literally bringing up the markers as there are marker lamps hung on the rear brackets. A killer image!

While these photos aren't of one of the tanks, it does illustrate the difficulties we have in determining the colors of these elusive tanks. It might be interesting a year or so from now, once all this new imformation has been collected, and provided we have photographic evidence, to present it in some concise form [if that is ever possible???!!!] to Microscale for a possible decal set.

Fascinating stuff, Industrial Archeology at its finest for sure.

-Don Spiro

A (01/23/00)    I would like to add the following to the prior answers:

1. The decals supplied by F&C with their original runs of National Car kits were correct to the extent that the reporting marks were indeed "NX", not "NAHX".

2. Based on all the photos I've seen in books, I was also under the impression that these cars did not operate into Boston. Imagine my surprise when I first discovered this fine website several weeks ago and saw the photo of such a car in North Station: [Getting Underway from North Station]

The questions are was this an anomaly or a regular occurrence, which creamery leased these cars, etc.

-John S. Horvath

A (01/25/00)  Some information on the Sealtest tanks:

I believe that the photograph Mike Sparks is referencing above, (RMC, March 1986, p.117), was taken in the vicinity of Track 23 at North Station in Boston.

Also, reference B&M Bulletin - Milk Trains, (Volume 7, Number 3 - Spring 1978), according to author Robert F. Cowan :

"The first container car in New England, NX1354, was shipped from North Lawrence NY, to the Boston Milk Yard, arriving May 18, 1948. It had two de-mountable tanks totaling 5140 gallons for $283.12 (B&M revenue was $92.02) under lease by General Ice Cream Company from the National Fitch Company who were the sales outlet for National Car Company (the car constructors), who in turn were a subsidiary of Fruit Growers Express."

He goes on to state that:

"In Boston, General Ice Cream leased three car lengths of yard trackage, with paving and an electrical connection. On the first trip, one of the 3000 gallon tank loads, (Did they use a pair of those "Pullman Green" short term lease cars for this trip, or is Mr. Cowan confusing the capacity of the smaller tanks with the capacity of the larger and better known containers? - W.S.K.), went to Mansion House Ice Cream and the second one to Bushway Ice Cream."

Finally, Mr. Cowan writes that "the three car siding lease was cancelled on April 1, 1955".

This same B&M Bulletin issue contains 2 photographs of B&M trains 5507 and 5509, (Boston to Bellows Falls - mostly empty milk cars for the Rutland), both with NX cars carrying what appear to be smaller tanks, (pages 14 and 15).

-Bill Keay

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Q. #35     (12/27/99)   Of the steel 40' GPEX milk tank cars, which road number and dairy lettering was most common on the Rutland? Is the Microscale set accurate for cars that ran on the Rutland?

-Rob Davis

A (01/09/00)   Thanks to the Newsliner, Volume 2/Number 1, and John Nehrich's Milk Train Data Pack, I came up with a representative sample of correct 40' steel, (circa 1946 construction with rounded side bottoms), GPEX cars documented on the Rutland.

The following cars are from William Shakespeare's notes for Trains 83 and 88, (ca. 1947), and carried milk into New York City.

Sheffield Farms: 987, 988, 990, 991.

Borden's: 998, 999, 1002, 1003.

The following cars carried milk between Bennington County Co-op in Manchester and New York City, for Borden's (ca. 1951): 1000, 1001, 1004, 1005, 1006.

The following cars, circa 1960, are from Conductor McKean's notes, as well as waybills from the Milton Co-op Creamery in Alburgh. All carried milk to Boston area processing plants:

H.P. Hood & Sons: 995, 1038, 1053, 1054

Whiting Milk Company: 1034, 1069, 1070, 1072 thru 1076


Please note that the above dates are important, as many GPEX cars were leased by more than one different Dairy Company over their service lives. For instance, GPEX car 990, which was leased to Sheffield Farms circa 1947, was later leased to H.P. Hood circa 1963, (H.P. Hood correspondence to Mr. J. E. Lancaster, 1963).

Also note that some GPEX cars did not always carry the Lessee's name lettered on their car sides, so you really have to (as always, it seems) model known car numbers from photographs.

Here are a couple I have been able to locate through a quick check of my collection:

There is an excellent builder's photo of GPEX 987, (6-46), lettered for Sheffield Farms, on page 92 of Bob Mohowski's masterpiece (my comments, sorry!) New York, Ontario and Western Railway - Milk Cans, Mixed Trains and Motor Cars.

I also came across a similar builder's photo of GPEX 1070, (1-48), lettered for Whiting Milk Company.

I know that I have similar photos of H. P. Hood and Borden's lettered cars, and will continue checking.

-Bill Keay

A (01/17/00)    The Milton Co-op Creamery in Alburgh,VT on the Rutland used GPEX 544 and 1034, [lettered] "Whiting" for many years. Three cars were assigned to them and made the rounds between Alburgh and Somerville, Mass.  I believe the third car was 968(?). In 1960, they started using cars in the pool and the 544 and 1034 went away. I would say that this assignment lasted about 10 years.

-Steve Mumley

A (01/23/00)    I would like to add an indirect answer to this question. I've recently been researching GPEX paint schemes for finishing some models using Sunshine's fine resin kit of the GPEX 50' wood-side milk tank cars with the original double doors. I model ca. 1953 but was surprised to find some subtle variations in lettering placement that I had not fully noticed and appreciated before. Specifically, the wealth of late 1940s builders photos of both wood- and steel- side cars indicates that the favored placement of the reporting marks, car number and weights was in a stacked arrangement with lines above the GPEX reporting marks and below the road number as was required (I believe) at the time. In this configuration, the line over the GPEX almost touches the lessee's name in many cases.

Now things get a bit complicated. It seems that within only a few years, the preferred placement became the reporting marks + car number placed at the bottom of the side with the weights adjacent to the right (perhaps easier to reach from the ground to wipe the omnipresent grime away to be able to read these necessary data) . The lines still appeared above and below the reporting marks + number. However, it may be that this alternative lettering layout may have been used concurrently with the "stacked" layout, perhaps at the choice of the lessee. I say this because most Whiting cars I've seen, for example, always seem to show this later/alternative side by side layout.

In any event, it seems that the alternative side by side layout eventually became the new standard, but this time without the lines above and below the reporting marks and road number (I believe they were dropped as an AAR requirement some time in the early 1950s although some railroads and car owners were quicker to make use of this rule change than others it seems). In any event, the placement of the reporting marks, car number and weight data adds a new bit of complexity to our goals of accurate modeling.

A separate but related issue of course is what lettering appeared on the right side of the car, i.e. "Milk Tank Car", "Milk Refrigerator", "Milk Tank". Was this a lessee choice or did GPEX use different wording at different times, perhaps varying its preference over the years? For example, it appears that most of the 50' steel cars had "Milk Refrigerator" originally but used "Milk Tank Car" in later repaintings. Yet 50' wood cars repainted at about the same time as the 50' steel cars were built seem to use the "Milk Tank Car" lettering.

-John S. Horvath

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Q. #36     (12/27/99)  Does anyone know how late the wooden Hood's milk cars ran with the colorful cow logo as seen on the PSC models?

-Rob Davis

A (01/15/00)   This is guessing, but based on photographic evidence, all of the wooden 40' Pfaudler cars had been rebuilt to straight-bottomed steel cars or "butter dish" cars by WWII (Yes, Pfaudler did have 4 butter dish-type milk cars of a rather different design than the Borden's cars. Initially 2 of these cars were leased to H. P. Hood's, 2 to Borden's! They were all lettered with plain lettering). Hood does not seem to have been a big leaser of the 50' wooden cars until after WWII, and all of those cars got the plain Roman scheme of lettering. However, at least some of the rebuilt 40' cars did have enameled sign boards until well after WWII. A side note on 40' wooden cars: Sheffield Farms OWNED some 40' wooden milk tank cars of General American/Pfaudler design/construction. These cars ran under SFCX reporting marks, and had the rectangular enameled sign boards. I've been told they were Maroon with Dulux Gold lettering, but I've never seen any color photo or other hard evidence. These cars were never rebuilt as best I can tell.

-Chris Martin

A (01/18/00)   Some points regarding the H. P. Hood 'Pfaudler' Cars.

If the model is lettered with 'G.A.R.E.' reporting marks, then it would be appropriate from around 1926 until around 1930, when the General American Car Company and the Pfaudler Company jointly formed the 'General American-Pfaudler Corporation'. Thereafter, the reporting marks would have been 'G.P.E.X.'.  H. P. Hood-assigned, wood-sheathed cars continued to carry a variety of 'cow' signs and slogans up until circa 1940. Your exquisite shot of G.P.E.X. 536 is an example of this. (Interestingly, this car is an M.D.T. 41' car, (similar to the well-known Whiting and Borden's B.F.I.X. cars), and not a more common General American car.)

Around 1938-1940, many wood-sheathed Pfaudler cars were rebuilt with steel sheathing. The question of how many, (or which car numbers), kept their wood sheathing, is one I have never seen answered with certainty. There are photographs of these cars in the post-war era lettered in the standard Pfaudler 'roman' style, but as is often the case, car numbers and company names are often obscured by grime. Ron Johnson's Maine Central - Mountain Division contains several shots of these cars in service on the 'Beecher Falls Mixed', which means the cars were most likely in service for H.P. Hood, Whiting, or United Farmers of New England, (the last was not a Rutland customer to the best of my knowledge).

The steel-sheathed rebuilds are recognizeable by the flat sides which do not taper inward at the bottom, as most of the later 'Pfaudler' steel cars did. There are also 2 variations of the rebuilds, with some having a "C" channel along the bottom of the sides and some without. The latter is what Overland Models chose to represent with their #3064. Photographs exist of both styles carrying H.P. Hood's 'cow signs', as Chris points out, well into the post-war period. See Shaughnessy's The Rutland Road page 270, and the Fall 1977 issue of The New England States Limited pages 13 (B&ML) and 14 (St.J&LC).

One more point not so much related to this question, but worth passing along.....

There is an excellent photograph of a Sheffield Farms S.F.C.X. 'Pfaudler' car in Issue #41, (April/May/June 1999), of The Railroad Press, on Page 24. Once again, you cannot discern a road number through the grime, but it would be helpful to those attempting to model the signs. [Also see page 14 of The Great Yellow Fleet for a photo of SFCX #1014 -jrd]

-Bill Keay

A (01/23/00)       Vol. X of Nimke's series of books on Connecticut River RR shows what appears to be a steel-sheathed car (flat side, no bottom channel) with the "cow" plaque affixed ca. 1946.

-John S. Horvath

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Q. #37     (01/08/00)  When the Rutland repainted its cabooses in the yellow and green scheme with black canvas roofs, were the roofwalks and end ladders green or black? Likewise on the original cherry red cabooses were the roof walks red or black?  Thanks.

-Gary Raizes

A (01/15/00)   All of the photos that I have show the running boards and ladders on RUTLAND wooden cabooses to be black. There may have been exceptions, but...

-Chris Martin

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Q. #38    Part 1 (01/09/00)   Dr. Seward Webb donated most of the funds to buy the land for Fort Ethan Allen in 1892. This would seem to benefit the CVRR at the expense of the Rutland as the alternate site was the western side of the lake. Does anyone have any ideas why Webb would want to see the fort on the CVRR route?

Q. #38 Part 2   (01/23/00)   I am also trying to found out when Dr. Seward Webb, the Vanderbilt son-in-law, first got involved in the Rutland Railroad. As part of a larger work, I am interested in Webb's involvement in the establishment of Fort Ethan Allen in 1892. Webb joined the Board of the CV in 1892 and pushed to have the fort located on the CV line at the expense of the Rutland. I believe he also attempted to scuttle development of a street railroad from the fort to Burlington and the Rutland railhead - something the CV bitterly opposed and which, I assume, the Rutland would have supported. Do you know anyone with background in this era?

-Chuck Lacy

A (01/13/00)  This question piqued my curiosity, and after a little research, I do not believe that there was a strong "Central Vermont versus Rutland" factor behind Dr. Webb's donations to the Fort Ethan Allen Project.

My hypothesis is based on the following facts centered on the time-period of his donation:

1.) During the early 1890's, the Rutland Railroad was controlled by the Delaware and Hudson Company. The D&H, in turn, was leasing the Rutland Railroad to the Central Vermont Railroad.

2.) During this timeframe, Dr. Webb's main focus was elsewhere. He was building the St. Lawrence & Adirondack Railroad, in western New York. This line would give the Vanderbilt-controlled New York Central a direct route into Montreal, which could compete with the Delaware and Hudson's line up the west shore of Lake Champlain. The Rutland Railroad's direct Burlington to Rouses Point line, (Rutland and Canadian), on the east shore of the lake, as well as the strong 'N.Y.C./Webb' interest in -and influence on- the Rutland was still some years in the future.

3.) Dr. Webb was a prominent Burlington area landholder, demonstrated by his 3800 acre 'Shelburne Farms' estate, and his active 'Commodore' position at the opulent 'Burlington Yacht Club'. Indeed, the wealthy and powerful of this great age in American history were known for being 'benefactors to the community', especially when these deeds gave aspiring railroad presidents and governors , such as Dr. Webb, much sought-after publicity.


Regarding Fort Ethan Allen, according to information contained at the following very informative web-site:

much of the controversy which took place prior to the Government approving the fort's construction seems to have been centered more on why the area needed a large military garrison at all, than on which side of the lake it should be located. Of course, economic and political factors are always present in these types of decisions.

It is interesting to note that across the lake, "Plattsburgh Barracks" (which has a long history dating back to the War of 1812) underwent expansion during the period of 1894-1897. I wonder if this was, at least partially, some appeasement to the citizens of that area, for not getting their own 'new' fort.

 -Bill Keay

Q. #39     (01/18/00)  Not wanting to throw the milk car discussion into a siding but here's a new modeling topic for the Q&A section. While photographing Mike and Randy's layout I was impressed with all the little, often overlooked lineside details they had included into each scene. They gave as much life and sense of place to a scene as did their incredible structures. One such detail that appeared everywhere on the railroad were yellow flanger warning signs. I know they warned the flanger operator to raise the blades for obstructions such as bridge derails, turnouts and grade crossings. I've been noticing a variety of styles in photos in the Nimke books and other sources. Can someone explain the different styles and why and where they were placed along the tracks? I'm particularly curious about ones that had two blades on the right side of the post and a single one on the left. Does anyone know the dimensions of these signs and did colors of the blades vary for different applications??? Let the games begin!

-Don Spiro

A (01/30/00)  The ones with two arms forming a "V" tell the plow or flanger crew to bring in the wings due to a narrowing of the right away: a cut, a bridge, etc.

The ones with one arm on the right tell the crews to lift the flanger blades because of an obstruction in the roadbed: switches, diamonds, grade crossings, etc.

The signs with a combination of the two warn of both types of obstructions at the same time.

The signs are usually black - good contrast to the snow. Some had white or reflective edges.

Mike Sparks has the NYC specs.

I'm working on an article for the Newsliner for the future. I tried to photograph some during our last convention but they tended to blend in during summer weather.

-Ray Muntz

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Q. #40     (01/23/00)   Does anyone have photographs or any other information on the Kilbourne's feed mill/plant located on the west side of the mainline between the creamery and the Rutland freight house at New Haven Junction, Vermont?  I am also looking for information on the creamery in Brandon, Vermont.  I want to model both of these structures, so I am mainly interested in photos, but I would be interested in anything related to these two shippers.

-Randy Laframboise (Rutland Car Shops)

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